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 Post subject: High Chinese and you
Post #1 Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:52 am 
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Or "I'll take 'High Chinese and a few distinct ways of approaching it the wrong way' for $400".
Or, alternatively, "How I stopped worrying and started giving large swaths of territory to my opponent for dirt cheap."
I read somewhere that one of the common kyu mistakes is unnecessarily obsessing over the opponent's moyo and invading it right away. Admittedly, this desire is sometimes too strong, as they look simply menacing. Do you have any useful ideas on how to treat them?


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 Post subject: Re: High Chinese and you
Post #2 Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:25 am 
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Move 100 at O12 seems to work?

Otherwise, the game doesn't look obviously lost at move 137 (on the other hand, I don't know how to evaluate the position precisely).

P.S. To have some ideas, you can look at pro games. If pros choose to pincer the F3 stone, they seem to prefer high and distant pincers (like J4 or K4).

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 Post subject: Re: High Chinese and you
Post #3 Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:42 am 
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The AlphaGo Teaching Tool ( https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com ) has quite an extensive treatment of the High Chinese Fuseki. In your line, it prefers the 3-3 invasion for :w8:. For :w6: it likes either keima approach to the top right corner, or a high approach to the bottom right corner from the right side. Its variations are instructive, if sometimes puzzling. :D

Edit: AlphaGo Teach does not have your line after :w8:, but in general the bots prefer :w10: at C-06. No hurry to pincer or invade.

Edit 2: Against the Chinese-Kobayashi sooner or later the high approach from the right to the bottom right looks good.

Edit 3: Black's double jump to F-07 is interesting. Go Seigen discussed it in somewhat different contexts in his 21st Century Go books. You really don't want to get pincered against that. I would make a two space extension on the bottom side with :w14:.

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 Post subject: Re: High Chinese and you
Post #4 Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:09 pm 
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A few comments on the opening, with small assist from low-playout Lizzie, so take with a grain of salt. I think you have a couple of bad ataris in the first 50 moves, but the opening did not turn out badly for you.


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 Post subject: Re: High Chinese and you
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:38 pm 
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jlt wrote:
Move 100 at O12 seems to work?
Oh yeah. :shock:

jlt wrote:
P.S. To have some ideas, you can look at pro games. If pros choose to pincer the F3 stone, they seem to prefer high and distant pincers (like J4 or K4).
That makes a lot of sense in the context of this game actually; swallowing a high stone would be more challenging.

Bill Spight wrote:
Edit 2: Against the Chinese-Kobayashi sooner or later the high approach from the right to the bottom right looks good.
Aye, just from memory, it creates a group that is somewhat stable, but still needs to run. It's not quite obvious which moment is right to get in there, so that the opponent doesn't get to solidify large territories on both sides while chasing this group away.

Bill Spight wrote:
Edit 3: Black's double jump to F-07 is interesting. Go Seigen discussed it in somewhat different contexts in his 21st Century Go books. You really don't want to get pincered against that. I would make a two space extension on the bottom side with :w14:.
Such was my intuition, but lately I succumb to those golden rules of not getting surrounded and letting stones have future. Admittedly, this pincered stone didn't have much to look out for, but I figured I could use it as aji later on. I wonder which was more important to save the prospects for in this case. On the bottom, a living group took away quite a couple points from the moyo, but wouldn't grow too much; on the other hand, the corner group on the left could only grow in one direction. Tough.


Calvin Clark wrote:
A few comments on the opening, with small assist from low-playout Lizzie, so take with a grain of salt. I think you have a couple of bad ataris in the first 50 moves, but the opening did not turn out badly for you.
Your suggestions are very welcome, especially regarding handling of the attachment stones. Thanks!

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