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 Post subject: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #1 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:51 am 
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Hi everyone,

this is a game I lost against an opponent whose every move is an attachment (ok, not all but 72 of 80 stones).

What typically happens is that I spend all my time trying to read out variations, inevitably getting some of them wrong, and then making big mistakes when in byo-yomi.

Any advice on how to
(a) How to improve fighting without excessive reading, and
(b) how to better judge which stones are worth defending when opponent goes after each one of them,
are very appreciated.


Attachment:
17479764-160-frau.koujiro-Tapani_commented.sgf [4.63 KiB]
Downloaded 236 times


It has been a long break from go for me, so my game probably looks like played by a drunk 15k :-)

Also this is like the 5th or 7th loss in a row, of which many at aggresive opponents, so I hope my annoyedness (at my self) does not come through in my comments.

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Post #2 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:12 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Tapani,
Only skimmed the beginning moves.
Mostly just 1 note: at :w8: .
DeepLeela is not a high-end bot, but it's freely available as long as you're online and their site is up.
By :w94: your winrate had dropped to 15%. Enjoy DeepLeela. :)

Quick replies to (a) and (b):
Super-human bots answer your questions (a) and (b) via millions and millions of games.
Humans do the same, only at a much lower game rate.
Study your own games, review with super-human bots (or DeepLeela, etc. ), work with human reviewers, put your new info into your games (and succeed and crash many times); rinse and repeat this process (same note as :w8: ... there's no magic; it's all just about honing your process).

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #3 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:29 am 
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I also notice that your responses to shoulder hits are a bit strange. The standard response is to extend (nobi).

https://senseis.xmp.net/?ShoulderHit

Move 74 was also predictable: https://senseis.xmp.net/?EyeStealingTesuji

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #4 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:34 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$---------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . O . 1 2 . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]
This is a completely normal sequence, and it sounds like you went on tilt here already - you need to both readjust your idea of what is normal, and somehow learn to calmly deal with things that aren't. Attachments are a way to settle your stones quickly, and if you play away in a situation like this where stones are in contact, you must be prepared to take a large loss.

It sounds like you are trying to avoid tactics, and that's probably the reason why an opponent like this is stronger in this area of the game.

One of the recurring themes appears to be that you seem to be unaware of the possibility that someone might push through a gap - as jlt mentioned, your responses to shoulder hits look strange. Some examples where your opponent does it to you:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . X . O a . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$---------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . X a 1 .
$$ | . . . O . .
$$ | . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ X . . . . X . .
$$ X . . . O a . .
$$ O X X . . 1 . .
$$ O O . . . . . .[/go]

And one where you could have pushed through but didn't:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ . . . 3 O X . . |
$$ . . 6 2 1 X . . |
$$ . . X 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------+[/go]
A push like that creates cutting points which can often be exploited.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #5 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:55 am 
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Tapani wrote:
...every move is an attachment ...

...Any advice ...


If you are locally stronger, hane.
If you are weaker, extend.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #6 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:29 am 
Judan

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Although you are stronger than the usual target audience of this page, it seems like your lack of practice / annoyance meant you played lots of moves which would have been better had you followed https://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicInstinct. I suggest you go through the game with this page open beside it and ask yourself "Is this shape in the basic instinct list?" if so "Did I play the basic instinct?" and "If not, why not, was my move better or worse?". If you've taken a long break from Go you won't be familiar with the new AI-influenced style, of which attachments being more common is one feature; but apart from the top right bot joseki I didn't see anything particularly bot style in this game, just your opponent generally playing sensible local shapes a lot more often than you did, and thus winning the contact fighting. I've not read it but have heard good things, maybe Bruce Wilcox's contact fights lessons would help you.

P.S. It seems you call more things attachments than I do, I wouldn't call hanes or counter hanes like 10 or 16 attachments, just those moves played without a friendly stone adjacent on lines or diagonals. So the following:
- 8 (normal post-AI, a little odd but not crazy Tygem style pre-AI)
- 14 (normal)
- 44 (normal shape idea, but read more, does black have a better answer than yours?)
- 100 (meh)
- (107 was attachment by you, RE your comment on 106 at the top you don't really have influence but a weak group)
- (125 your attachment is the most crazy-Tygem-attachment-style of the game, but I can see why you tried it given the dire circumstances)
So whilst most move were contact moves, I only count 4 of his 80 as attachments.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #7 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:01 am 
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At move 62, you don't need to trap the H16 stone immediately with J15. Let him try to rescue it if he wants to. It will be costly.
Play like this instead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position at move 62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . X . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . . O , O O . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . C . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O X . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He can try to run out, but he will just be heading toward your circled stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #8 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Thank you for the comments.

It is clear that some of my instincts are a bit off, and you guys are right that I probably got tilted early on (had lost a few similar games before this one in a similar style - where opponent is not trying to make any territory, but hoping I make a mistake and die).

Many of my strange tenukis were probably inspired by a post by Dwyrin I saw recently. He recommends ignoring fights over small things when there are larger moves available.

@Ed: As for studying pro / AI games, yes I have done that in the past - but with the catch I do not understand many moves.
Yes I understand that pattern recognition is crucial, and what allows me (us?) to manage as well as we do. But for me when there is no familiar pattern in a fight (like with the armpit hits this guy did), it all becomes a jumble of stones - and reading very slow (all moves have many candidate responses).

@jlt: Thanks! Heard about the eye-stealing tesuji, but thought it referred to a situation where you throw in a stone such that after capture the eye formed is false.

@bernds:
Thank you for the detailed examples. I agree with the point you are trying to make, but in some of the examples you show there are concrete reasons for my play. Like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . X . O a . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$---------------+[/go]

If black plays at a instead, white plays at :b1: and I was not sure if the exchange is good for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ . . . 3 O X . . |
$$ . . 6 2 1 X . . |
$$ . . X 5 O O X . |
$$ . . . . O X a . |
$$ . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------+[/go]

In this situation I would expect white to play a instead of some of the other moves.

@Uberdude: I agree that my instincts are rusty. And I do have Bruce Wilcox contacts fights (and sector fights). Recommended for those with similar problems, but it is not enough. It is also recommended that I should follow Bruce's advice ....
And yes, I ment contact moves with what I called attachments.

@Joaz Banbeck: Actually the idea you showed did cross my mind, but I would have started with a cap instead. Dismissed it because I was not sure if I could keep him from connecting to his stones or attacking my base once he was stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Tapani wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 b . |
$$ . X . O a . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$---------------+[/go]

If black plays at a instead, white plays at :b1: and I was not sure if the exchange is good for me.


Did you also consider "b"? Not sure it's much better, but it leaves fewer cutting points.


Last edited by jlt on Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:53 pm 
Judan

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The above is a case of black fighting to save every stone, when a more flexible idea is worth considering:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . X . O . . . |
$$ . . . 1 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$---------------+[/go]


But in fact it was better to not get into this situation: in a double approach situation (where they don't have a pincer) you want to be putting pressure on white by not easily giving up either stone, so play the natural hane at 2. After this you are treating the other approach stone lightly, but it retains significant aji and means white's group is not so strong, plus it also served a nice purpose in forcing white to defend with 5 instead of blocking the corner (which is valuable eyes and points).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . 3 1 X . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . X 5 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$---------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:18 pm 
Honinbo

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I would have recommended Wilcox's contact fights, but you have that. You may enjoy the material on haengma at SL. https://senseis.xmp.net/?Haengma

Some comments. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #12 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:53 am 
Judan

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At move 71 with the following position you said
Quote:
This is so counterintuitive to me, but happens over and over. White stones has NO eyes, cannot run and still wins the fight, and black ends up dying badly.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . X .
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O X . .
$$ | . . X O X X . O X X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Let's identify the groups(by which I mean connected strings of stones) and how many liberties they have:

== White ==
d14 etc: 5 libs
k17 etc: 5 libs
Total 2 groups

== Black ==
c15: 2 libs
d16/d17: 5 libs
e15/f15: 4 libs
h14: 3 libs
j15/k15: 3 libs
l16: 3 libs
m17: 4 libs
j18/j17: 4 libs
Total 8 groups.

Now let's mark black cutting points with triangles:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . X .
$$ | . . T X T . . O O O X . .
$$ | . . X O X X . O X X T . .
$$ | . . O O O . . X T . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And white with squares:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . X .
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O X . .
$$ | . . X O X X . O X X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Black's ripped keimas/tobis: which are a classic bad shape because you are cut but your opponent isn't.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . Y Q . X .
$$ | . . . X . . . O Q Q Y . .
$$ | . . Y Q Y X . O Y Y . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


And white's:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . X O . X .
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O X . .
$$ | . . X O X X . O X X . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Can you see why my intuition is the opposite to yours? :)

So whilst you are correct that white k17 group has no eyes and can't escape to the centre, it is just 1 solidly connected group whilst black has 5 (or 6 or 7 if you count e15 etc) groups surrounding it low on liberties and with many cutting points. So my assumption from just glancing at this position and not reading at all is that black can't keep it all together and white will live by capturing some black bits. To try to kill with such a broken shape you need to read a lot beforehand before embarking on such a risky venture.


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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #13 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:36 am 
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Hi Tapani,

I think Uberdudes post perfectly illustrates the problem, you have a lacking understanding of strong and weak shapes. Remember that the best way to make sure your stones are safe is to connect them.
Maybe you have heard the proverb "Even a fool connects against a peep"?. In the game you showed, on various occasions (as others have noticed: as answer to shoulder hits) you essentially peep yourself which is the same as ignoring a peep and playing elsewhere.

Also you complained about your opponent attaching to your stones but really mostly they were normal moves and if you don't answer contact plays (as you did various times) it's only natural that your opponent will get a good result.

Quote:
Here I decided to try Dwyrins advice of not end up gobbled in fights over small stones. As long as my "group" is safe I can make a big move elsewhere.
How much is the R17 stone worth?

Of course on every move you should strive to play the biggest move on the board. However you first need to improve your judgement about what is small and what is big.
To answer your question: It's not a small stone. White got a great result there.

Quote:
(a) How to improve fighting without excessive reading, and
(b) how to better judge which stones are worth defending when opponent goes after each one of them


(a) Connect your stones. Make strong shapes. Anyway reading ability is essential for your skill, don't dismiss it. Do life and death as well as tesuji problems. That will improve your understanding of shapes as well. Replaying pro games (consciously, not mindlessly) can also help with improving your instinct. But in the end there is no replacement for reading.
(b) If and how you wanna fight always depends on the relative strength and weakness of groups on the board. To improve your judgement of that: see above.

Good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #14 Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:29 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
At move 71 with the following position you said
Quote:
This is so counterintuitive to me, but happens over and over. White stones has NO eyes, cannot run and still wins the fight, and black ends up dying badly.

...

Can you see why my intuition is the opposite to yours? :)


THIS. Thank you! Let me explain:

On my way up from the DDK swamp, I have had similar positions (as both white and black) many times. Usually white has died. Even today, given the white stones against an average Tygem stoneslammer - I would be very capable of dying as white. In fact, I might have tenuki-ed as white and just given up the "dead" stones.

The fact that a stronger player feels it is bad for black, is eye opening on a higher level. The experiences I have had so far in go, might only apply when playing against opponents of certain level.
And that is worth keeping in mind, and I have to try to reevaluate what I already "know".


@golem7:

As all of you have pointed out I ignored many basic principles, while I should not have. Was probably tilted from losing several games in a row - where we end up fighting over some stones early on when there are huge moves available.

Many of my opponents moves were normal moves, but when the game was going on it struck me that any move he played was always touching my stones.

[quote=golem7]
Reading ability is essential for your skill, don't dismiss it
[/quote]
Avoiding or dismissing reading is not what I am trying to do!

In my point of view reading has several "components", like:
  • Visualization - the skill to imagine how the board looks like after some moves / captures have been made
  • Finding the candidate moves - the skill to pick which moves are more interesting/uselful to look at than others
  • Evaluation - judging positions, to stop reading variations earlier

My post was on how to read out a sequence faster. Now, my candidate move selection is very poor - and I end up reading out way more variations than I should. As uberdude points out, my evalution is also poor, meaning I read very long, and very wrong. And I spend all my time reading variations, ending up in byuomi by move 40. Just a few crosscuts and I am already into minutes per move reading variations.

To get an understanding how a fight often "feels" for me: drop a jumble of stones onto the goban. Finding candidate moves or evaluation is not so quick anymore - since the 'position' does not resemble anything you recognize.

My training regimen has been tygem tygem and more tygem, and trying to pick fights myself, but there is a limit on how much beating I am willing to take :-)
Maybe a better way could be to play more on say IGS where I have more time - or even correspondence go.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #15 Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:45 am 
Honinbo

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Tapani wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
At move 71 with the following position you said
Quote:
This is so counterintuitive to me, but happens over and over. White stones has NO eyes, cannot run and still wins the fight, and black ends up dying badly.

...

Can you see why my intuition is the opposite to yours? :)


THIS. Thank you! Let me explain:

On my way up from the DDK swamp, I have had similar positions (as both white and black) many times. Usually white has died. Even today, given the white stones against an average Tygem stoneslammer - I would be very capable of dying as white. In fact, I might have tenuki-ed as white and just given up the "dead" stones.


First, it is difficult to improve if your opponents are weak players. They will usually not punish your mistakes, and you can pick up bad habits from them, instead of picking up good habits from good players.

Second, "similar positions" is a vague phrase. Look again at Uberdude's analysis. He started by identifying connected groups of stones. Then he counted their dame. Then he highlighted cutting points. You could have a "similar position" where Black had no cutting points, and then White might indeed be dead. Even if the White group captured the two Black stones in the middle, that might give him only one eye .

Wilcox counts liberties. In fact, he is the author of the saying, "Five alive." That is not necessarily so, OC, but the White connected group has five liberties, and the adjacent Black two stone group has four. When White descends to the second line, White has six liberties and Black has only three. More tellingly, the three other adjacent Black groups to the right and center have only three liberties each, and two cutting points. Furthermore, although Uberdude does not show it, there is a strong White group to the right to which White might connect, if need be. All of Black's weaknesses make the fight difficult for Black. Let me urge you to study Wilcox again, and to count liberties and be aware of cutting points.

Quote:
The fact that a stronger player feels it is bad for black, is eye opening on a higher level. The experiences I have had so far in go, might only apply when playing against opponents of certain level.


If you want to get stronger, play against stronger players. :)

Quote:
And that is worth keeping in mind, and I have to try to reevaluate what I already "know".


Good point. :) As the saying goes, "It ain't what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't so." ;)

Quote:
My post was on how to read out a sequence faster. Now, my candidate move selection is very poor - and I end up reading out way more variations than I should. As uberdude points out, my evalution is also poor, meaning I read very long, and very wrong. And I spend all my time reading variations, ending up in byuomi by move 40. Just a few crosscuts and I am already into minutes per move reading variations.


I admire your tenacity, and I do not mean to discourage you, but you might better spend those minutes doing tsumego and tesuji problems. :) Rin Kaiho famously recommended spending up to 10 minutes on a crucial move in the game, but that was in the context of spending 20 minutes on 120 other moves, an average of 10 seconds per move. By contrast, Wilcox recommended that his students finish a game in 15 minutes, a pace of less than 4 seconds per move. :o (At his go camps, some of his SDK students gained 4 stones in two weeks! Wilcox was on to something. :))

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #16 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:31 am 
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Something else to think about. When White approaches at :w1: below if you immediately switch to the lower left with :b2:, LZ 222 sees only about a 0.2% difference between that move and 'a' or 'b'.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . a . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Once you respond with :b2: below as in the game, now playing :b4: in response to :w3: is a -10% to 11% play in LZ's calculation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


By the time you exchange :b4: for :w5: (the game sequence), changing your mind now and playing :b6: is around -15%. Choices have consequences. Changing our minds halfway through a sequence where we have committed more resources allows the opponent to damage us more than if we had never gotten involved.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #17 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:46 am 
Honinbo

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ez4u wrote:
Changing our minds halfway through a sequence where we have committed more resources allows the opponent to damage us more than if we had never gotten involved.


Judgement is required, however, is it not?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 10-11% loss
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


After :w3: attaches LZ reckons :b4: as losing 10-11%.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Loss or gain?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But what about :b4: after the slide, :w3:? My guess is that :b4: loses less according to LZ, or may even make a gain.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #18 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:27 am 
Lives in gote

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In your second diagram, LZ wants to tenuki and invade the 3-3 at R3. But the approach is fine, with -0.5%, and is slightly better than solidifying the corner with R17

So yes, the situation is very different, and you should not tenuki the attach in the first diagram.

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #19 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:48 am 
Gosei
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@Bill, if your point is to illustrate why bots have such a low opinion of the slide, well done. ;-)

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: Opponent who fight every stone
Post #20 Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:24 am 
Honinbo

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ez4u wrote:
@Bill, if your point is to illustrate why bots have such a low opinion of the slide, well done. ;-)


No, my point is really what I said. Judgement is required. And it is not easy. Humans tenukied after the slide long before the bot era. And, as an SDK, I recall being extremely puzzled why pros stopped playing in certain areas of the board when they did. When are we halfway through a sequence, and when are we not?

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins


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