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 Post subject: Painful Loss
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:57 pm 
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I played the game below at the local club today. My opponent and I are about the same rank (3-4k AGA). Would someone have time to provide some comments?

I thought the game started off well. I think my first real mistake is at move 54, but overall, I was very happy with my play up to move 108. At move 108, I had a chance to simplify the game for a fairly straightforward (I think!) win. Unfortunately, I didn't simplify and tried to do more than I needed to do to win... Even with that blunder, I think I recovered and was happy with my play until move 172. Here I made the first of a sequence of mistakes that ultimately cost me the game.



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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:16 am 
Honinbo

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You outplayed your opponent until you didn't. :( There is an art to winning a won game. :)

:w8: AlphaGo Teach likes your play. :)

:w26:: What about the hane-and-connect at B-17? I seem to recall that it is good when Black has stones on both nearby star points on the side.

:w30: I think the crawl at G-18 is better, because it carries a threat. If :b31: at H-17, White has lived with sente and can tenuki. :)

:w32: What about one point further in, at L-03? Doesn’t that have a better relationship to F-03?

:w44: Looks too solid. How about the keima at M-06? If Black pushes and cuts you can sacrifice the two stones in the corner for greater outside strength and sente.

:w46: Good!

Speaking from experience, if Black plays the opening this badly, he probably is good at something else. Like fighting. No time to relax.

:w50: Yes, C-07 was better. Another case of living without threatening anything.

:w54: Time to plan. White has the advantage, because Black has played poorly so far, taking gote when he didn’t have to. Presumably he is a good fighter. You each have two weak stones on the bottom side. Yours are weaker because his have more room. But you have sente. If you both run out, you can probably maintain your lead. Sacrificing your two stones is an option, but that would be a pretty large sacrifice, and you can’t at this point see getting much strength from doing so. Both your play and your suggested play probably lose your stones. My suggestion is the shoulder blow at H-06, which even starts to make an eye for you. If now Black peeps at G-04, you can push through at H-04. You can lose one stone if you keep Black separated. The result will probably be run-run, which looks OK. :)

:b55: Overplay. Black should peep now, when White cannot push through at H-04.

:w66: The tesuji is J-01. But probably better to go with you idea of sacrifice in exchange for outside strength and atari at K-05.

:w70: One point lower (P-13) might be better. More solid. The dogleg keima is a pretty good shape. :)

:w72: Good. Dogleg keima. :)

:w2: (White 102). You don’t have to win the semeai to win the game. How about N-09?

:w10: N-09 threatens to push and cut.

:w12: L-08 is a shape point (middle of three).

:w18: H-17 is tesuji, the nose attachment, leaving Black with 3 dame. Now if Black hanes underneath at H-18, extend to J-17. Then when Black connects at G-18, mend your shape with J-15. Black can still trade his stones for your 5 stones in the center, but with gote, not sente. Big difference. :) If Black connects underneath instead, you should be able to make life, or at least make a lot of dame for the semeai in the center.

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:20 pm 
Oza
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When Black peeps with 57, the only thought that occurs to me is, "Should I atari at K5 or L6?" The fate of a single stone right next to Black's six-stone wall cannot be the vital point. In the end I think I would have chosen K5, which White chose in the game. This move is the real point of everything that is played starting with Black's attachment at K6.

At 90 if you atari from the other side, drive Black's stones in the center, and then take your corner with Q18, who is ahead? Your 90 in the game is a good, strong play, but it is perhaps more complicated than you needed.

In your variation at 108 where you jump in the center, what do you do if Black simply cuts at G14? I don't see that White can create four liberties very easily here.

Finally you need to find Bill's tesuji at 118. In the game it looks to me that Black wins the fight by simply cutting at J16 with 121. The atari at D18 is a useful resource in the fighting. White cannot approach from the back and is short of liberties in the center.

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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:35 am 
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Bill, thank you as always for the detailed comments. These are very helpful. Two follow-up questions:

Bill Spight wrote:
:w26:: What about the hane-and-connect at B-17? I seem to recall that it is good when Black has stones on both nearby star points on the side.


Here is the board following black 25:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I thought about playing the hane connect at A, but the marked black stone dissuaded me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the hane connect unnecessarily strengthens that stone. Given my group in the lower left corner, that didn't seem like a good idea. It seemed to me that by refraining from the honey connect I could preserve the opportunity to play around C if I ever managed to get a stone in the area of B. Is that a reasonable consideration?

Bill Spight wrote:
:w66: The tesuji is J-01. But probably better to go with you idea of sacrifice in exchange for outside strength and atari at K-05.


I considered that move in the game, but I couldn't figure out the sequence to maintain the connection. Even now it seems like it doesn't work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X , . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O X X X . O . X X X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . 4 3 O 5 2 . O X . X . X X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


What am I missing?

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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:48 am 
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Thank you! One follow-up question:

ez4u wrote:
At 90 if you atari from the other side, drive Black's stones in the center, and then take your corner with Q18, who is ahead? Your 90 in the game is a good, strong play, but it is perhaps more complicated than you needed.


I've played your moves in the board below, but I don't see how white is clearly ahead. Even if black plays A and white gets the big reduction moves at B-D, the game still seems quite close. Are there reduction moves that I'm missing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . O O . . . . . . . d . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . a O O . X . . . , . . . |
$$ | b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X , . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O X X X . O . X X X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . . . O X . . O X . X . X X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:19 am 
Honinbo

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BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
:w26:: What about the hane-and-connect at B-17? I seem to recall that it is good when Black has stones on both nearby star points on the side.


Here is the board following black 25:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . a X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I thought about playing the hane connect at A, but the marked black stone dissuaded me. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the hane connect unnecessarily strengthens that stone. Given my group in the lower left corner, that didn't seem like a good idea. It seemed to me that by refraining from the honey connect I could preserve the opportunity to play around C if I ever managed to get a stone in the area of B. Is that a reasonable consideration?


The bots have taught us that the hoary 3-3 invasion joseki, where White plays the hane-and-connect and makes a nice territory in the corner in sente, is not so good, because Black's outside strength is too good. However, this kind of position with the :bc: stones may be an exception, where that joseki is fine for White. :) But you should check me on that and see what a top bot says.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . . . . . B . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 2 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . X , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


IIRC, it is preferable in such a position for Black to play the two step hane at :wc: and take the corner. But when Black extends, as in this game, if White plays :w1: - :w3:, :b4: is not good, because with the :bc: stones Black is over concentrated. If Black omits :b4: Wa or Wb offer a way into Black's moyo.

Quote:
Bill Spight wrote:
:w66: The tesuji is J-01. But probably better to go with you idea of sacrifice in exchange for outside strength and atari at K-05.


I considered that move in the game, but I couldn't figure out the sequence to maintain the connection. Even now it seems like it doesn't work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X , . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O X X X . O . X X X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . 4 3 O 5 2 . O X . X . X X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


What am I missing?


First, W J-01 is tesuji, :w66: is not. Because of symmetry, it looks like it is, but it isn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X , . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O W X X X . O . X X X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . 5 3 O 4 2 . O X . X . X X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Second, you don't have to save :wc:. :w4: here is quite nice. :b1: looks pretty bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . O X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O . X . O . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X , . . O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O X X X . O . X X X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . . 5 O 3 2 . O X . X . X X . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . O 1 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b3: in this diagram is better, but White has left aji behind. :)

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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)


Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:45 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
It seemed to me that by refraining from the honey connect I could preserve the opportunity to play around C if I ever managed to get a stone in the area of B. Is that a reasonable consideration?


There is death in the honey. :lol:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)

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Post #8 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
It seemed to me that by refraining from the honey connect I could preserve the opportunity to play around C if I ever managed to get a stone in the area of B. Is that a reasonable consideration?


There is death in the honey. :lol:


Well this is an ironic mistake. I usually blame these blunders on my dyslexia. But in this case, I was using dictation software to avoid these kinds of mistakes... Looks like I need to retrain the go terms into the software! :-)

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Post #9 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:31 pm 
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BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
It seemed to me that by refraining from the honey connect I could preserve the opportunity to play around C if I ever managed to get a stone in the area of B. Is that a reasonable consideration?


There is death in the honey. :lol:


Well this is an ironic mistake. I usually blame these blunders on my dyslexia. But in this case, I was using dictation software to avoid these kinds of mistakes... Looks like I need to retrain the go terms into the software! :-)


Spelling correction corrected one of my hane-and-connects to hand-and-connect. ;)

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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)

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Post #10 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:15 pm 
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häné


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 Post subject: Re: Painful Loss
Post #11 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:48 am 
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Like Dave (ez4u), I had the sense that you did not have to go to so much trouble to win the game, after Black's poor opening. But demonstrating that convincingly is not so easy. Dave has not replied, so I enlisted the aid of Deep Leela (Leela 11) to come up with an illustrative line of play. Deep Leela is not now a top bot, so I worked it hard. You will notice that several plays have more than 1,000,000 visits. :) I certainly could not have come up with such intricate and interesting play by myself.

So FWIW, go to the variation at move 90. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet. ;)


Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:03 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Like Dave (ez4u) had the sense that you did not have to go to so much trouble to win the game, after Black's poor opening. But demonstrating that convincingly is not so easy. Dave has not replied, so I enlisted the aid of Deep Leela (Leela 11) to come up with an illustrative line of play. Deep Leela is not now a top bot, so I worked it hard. You will notice that several plays have more than 1,000,000 visits. :) I certainly could not have come up with such intricate and interesting play by myself.

So FWIW, go to the variation at move 90. :)


Bill, this is unbelievably generous! Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am actually having some technical issues that prevent me from using Leela at the moment, but even if that were not the case, I don't have the hardware to let Leela make a million visits for one move. (A good GPU is on my list of things to buy, but with two young kids and other priorities it's a little ways from the top of my list :-))

That said, most of these sequences are not currently in my repertoire. The use of Aji by white on the bottom was very nice. I am familiar with the clamp used it J18, but it never occurred to me to consider that instead of the monkey jump. I also thought it was interesting that in the main line Leela did not make use of the monkey jump. She even got the same result on the left as one would get with the monkey jump.

This also made me realize something that I think is important. I think I need to start spending some time studying the endgame more carefully. Until now, I haven't ignored it. But since the vast majority of my games seem to be decided in the middle game, I've been prioritizing direction of play and fighting. I now see that understanding the endgame is crucial to understanding when one is sufficiently ahead in the middle game that one needs to simplify. Definitely one of those insights that seems obvious once you have it!

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