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 Post subject: thequietcenter (10k) vs mrorii (2d) - please review.
Post #1 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:34 am 
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Hello, I played as Black and lost this game. I would appreciate a review:

https://online-go.com/game/42267000

One note: I think that I need to play a 3-4 stone instead of 4-4 in the opening. Early influence is putting me behind in territory to early in the game in general.

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 Post subject: Re: thequietcenter (10k) vs mrorii (2d) - please review.
Post #2 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:27 am 
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I wouldn't fret about 3-4 versus 4-4 too much. It implies different styles, but there is nothing intrinsically bad about either. You don't lose points by playing one or the other in the opening.

In this game, the most glaring error seems :b39: (B18). It doesn't make eyes at all, and it doesn't even threaten to connect out. And at least one of those is what the black group on the left side needs desperately. Black could push at B17 instead or/and at C11.

Because the black group is weak, :b51: and :b53: are overplays. Black should still do something for the group.

:b57: could make an emergency eye with C18, then C19.

:b61: could still make a ko at E19 instead.

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 Post subject: Re: thequietcenter (10k) vs mrorii (2d) - please review.
Post #3 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:16 am 
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Some quick thoughts from an OGS 6kyu. This is probably pre-AI reasoning but my impression is that you aren't choosing AI-style fuseki. Maybe someone stronger can add or correct.

thequietcenter wrote:
One note: I think that I need to play a 3-4 stone instead of 4-4 in the opening. Early influence is putting me behind in territory to early in the game in general.
I don't think 3-4 vs 4-4 matters at all. There are 4-4 joseki to take territory. I think it's other choices that can be helped.

By the way, the 4-4 kick joseki is nice when you have a stone on the side to prevent the opponent from making a full extension. And the extension after the kick can be high (instead of on the 3rd line as in the game) so that there is a follow-up move later at 'a'. Maybe you played low in the game since the other stones were on the 4th line but there are always trade offs. Just something to consider. There is another follow-up at 'b' that helps secure the corner terittory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Example of the kick joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 4 . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . b 1 3 . a . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . Y . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


If you have 4-4 points and given the rest of the board you want to maintain balance by taking territory, know that playing the kick joseki does not actually secure the corner territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Example - now White is concerned for his 3 stones
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . 6 3 7 . 5 . .
$$ | . . 1 . 3 5 . . .-. 8 O 2 O 1 4 9 .
$$ | . . . X 4 X . . .-. . . X X X 0 . .
$$ | . 2 X . . . . . .-. X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .-. . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .-. . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . Y . . . . .-. . . Y . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


A variation if White is already stronger along the left and has a stone along the top. Black wants to settle and doesn't have much hope to attack the left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Example
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . Q .
$$ | . 4 5 X . X . . .
$$ | . 3 X 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$[/go]


Comment:
--B9, consider a pincer. Playing a move on the bottom is not so efficient because you already have a position on the bottom. The right side is open. And if White jumps into the 3-3 that seems fine to me.
--B21 doesn't seem urgent to me. OGS AI doesn't ding it much but it seems to me that B31 would be better immediately. Or a move to secure one of the corners. Or if you did play as in the game, it seems like you need to cut that group at the bottom and try to use the attack against the bottom group to build a reduction/attack against the side group.
--The moves in the top left corner seem wrong. I think the kosumi-peep at C15, if answered, would have let your stones push on the 3rd line instead of jumping on the 2nd. I'm not sure what is correct but jumping on the 2nd line isn't going to make eye-space. Also, it seems good to bump against the stone at C10 on the side and then push under on the 2nd line a bit to secure eyes.
--At B41, consider attacking the White stone from the outside to build on the upper side (and reduce the usefulness of the White wall) rather than trying to save your stone.

If the opponent really is 2D, consider asking for 9 stones from them and work down from there. Even 6 stones is a big advantage. 5 stones feels a lot less than 6 to me given that the 5th stone is the center rather than 2 stones on the side points.

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 Post subject: Re: thequietcenter (10k) vs mrorii (2d) - please review.
Post #4 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:31 pm 
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I meant to also mention the attach-on-top 4-4 joseki. W7 will likely be at a or b and then Black can play c. If White plays b then Black can can consider playing at a before c. If White plays a, Black can consider cutting at b later. Black might play this way if White already has a stone along the side since now White wishes his stone was a bit further (proverb: 3 spaces from a 2-stone wall). This joseki works alone, it's just better with the marked White stone already played.

I haven't seen this joseki in top games. It's not an AI-favorite but not bad. I've found it easy to use.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Example of the attachment joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . c . . .-. . . X . 6 . . .-. . . X . 2 . . .
$$ | . . 4 6 . . . . .-. . X X . . . . .-. . X X . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 5 . . . .-. 4 O X O . . . .-. . O X O . . . .
$$ | . . a 3 b . . . .-. 5 2 O 1 . . . .-. . 1 O b . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . 3 . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . Q . . . . .-. . . Q . . . . .-. . . Q . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .-. . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: thequietcenter (10k) vs mrorii (2d) - please review.
Post #5 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:43 pm 
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OGS: thequietcenter
Thank you both for your feedback.

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