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 Post subject: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:39 pm 
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Last weekend I played this game against my teacher and I will say that she is very strong. I took 8 stones and still lost by 38.5 points, so I did make some grave mistakes. Point them out without mercy and much obliged in advance for your kind commentary.

Note: I have difficulty uploading the SGF, so for now I will provide a link to the game in question.
https://online-go.com/game/54219843


This post by tekesta was liked by: Elom0
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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:19 pm 
Gosei
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You have a strong teacher, so she is in the best position to point out your mistakes... I'll however say one thing. In a handicap game, Black needs to use his handicap stones to keep White's groups weak, and avoid creating a weak black group which would be a target for attack. So at move 16 I would go to the center with K5 in order to separate White's two groups while strengthening my weakish black group. At move 28 I would play R3 to protect the corner. It's not just that corners are big in terms of points, but also White's group is still weak, and if you take the corner then it becomes more difficult for White to make a base.

P.S. Uploading images also seems currently impossible on the forum.


This post by jlt was liked by: Elom0
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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:31 am 
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Online playing schedule: The OGS data looks pretty so I'll pause for now before I change it.
I agree the person best placed to give advice is your teacher

I'm very surprised at black :b7: :b8: black F12 instead of E11, black :b8: :b4: Q14 instead of P15, and black :b8: :b6: would be better of at R13 or at least S11. And what's the point of blocking at S5 when white is going to live anyway, just split! But then later on you don't block at B9. In the blunder at 142 you miss completely which white group has fewer liberties, especially since shortage of liberties in the upper right creates aji. And then you do the same thing in your next move. In fact virtually all the mistakes I've listed up to this point seems to be based on you apparently having absolutely no idea of which white groups have fewer liberties. AI says black should finish the sequence in the lower left, and to it seems clearly to be sente for black, black threatens to kill the corner, and allowing white T5 makes black lose forcing moves against the group on the right. From white 191 white takes it extremely easy on you like skipping N12 and playing N1. The real difference is about 72 points so a 15 stone handicap is the real difference in play in this game! So she probably took it easy on you since she didn't know whether you where the type of person who's confidence would be destroyed by losing by 70 points with 8 stones, but since you said you want clear feedback you don't seem to need it.

Note my suggested moves aren't likely close to best but I think they're significantly better to keep the game within 6 points by the end.

I recommend solving tsumego with the theme of shortage of liberties.

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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:06 pm 
Lives in gote

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I don't know how strong you are, but the world champion may give me 8 stones handicap. I may give a 6k 8 stones handicap. A 6k may give a 14k 8 stones handicap. A 14k may give a 22k 8 stones handicap. A 22k may give a 30k 8 stones handicap. Possibly a 30k may give a raw novice 8 stones handicap.

The skill ladder of go is very high.

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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:48 am 
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My opinion: erase the attach-and-extend joseki from your mind! I'm sure it's a virus spread by pros to keep their students weak, so that they can win handicap games. (Objectively, it's not a bad move, but the followups get complicated, and there's a high risk of either being passive or making complicated mistakes. In this game, twice you let white capture a big corner.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c O . b . . x . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Try one of 'a', 'b', or 'c' instead. When you already have a black stone at 'x', then 'c' is a good way to take the initiative.

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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:18 am 
Oza
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I would rephrase Xela's advice as "Know what you're doing".

Whatever the pros and cons of a particular move or pattern (like the attach and extend joseki) are, especially in a handicap game you can afford to play the moves that you understand. So if you don't understand the weakness left by that joseki, it's indeed preferable to choose another. But if you have studied that joseki and understand what's going on, then it can be a perfect choice!

The easiest thing to understand going on in a handicap game, is whether you or the opponent is being separated and surrounded. With 8 stones to link up to, you're in a big advantage. If you connect your stones (on a large scale) and separate White into multiple groups, she will have a hard time to turn that situation into a victory. Compare that to you taking territory, allowing her to connect on a grand scale, in which case her superior L&D skills and endgame may give her an easier time.

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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:53 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . 6 5 X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X 4 X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O 2 1 . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


In the game black played like in the diagram but this is an anti-pattern. :b1: is peeping at the cutting point, which in turn makes white's shape much stronger and that is why white is able to push through and cut with :w4: to :w6:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


Black could have defended against the push and cut but for the moment it was not necessary. Instead, black could have split white in a way that hardly allows white to ever connect the two groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 5 . . X . . . 1 . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . 6 4 3 X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X 2 X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O M . . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


If white tries to push and cut in this position it is possible for black to defend by threatening to cut at the marked point.

These variations are too complicated for beginners but the basic principle is to not peep where you could cut. Following this principle often makes the difference between having a position that you can handle one move at a time or playing into a position where nothing can really solve the most pressing problems. Another important idea is to defend your own cutting points before it becomes too complicated to defend if they are cut.


This post by kvasir was liked by: Elom0
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 Post subject: Re: Still lost on 8 stones
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:23 am 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . O a . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . . . . . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X O . O O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . X X . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X O O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . . X X . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X O O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . X X . . . . X X . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . O , . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X . . X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . O X O O O X . . . |
$$ | . O . X O X O . . X X . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . O O X . O X . . . X . |
$$ | . O X X . . X X O X X O X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X O X . X . . O X . X . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . O X X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O O X X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X X . O , O X O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . X X O . O X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X O . O . . O . . X X . |
$$ | . O . X O X O O X X . . X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . X O O O X . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Code:
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kvasir wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 5 . . X . . . 1 . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . 6 4 3 X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X 2 X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O M . . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . w . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . w X . . X . . . X . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . O O X X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . O X X O . O . . . . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . X O X O . . X . . . . . X . . .|
$$ | . . . X O O . . . . . X . O . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by rhwocns was liked by: Elom0
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