very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

Tyson2011 · #1

very very messy, i have only played a handful of games since coming back after a two year hiatus, so feel free to be as rigorous as possible with my play

Dusk Eagle · #2

Here is a quick review.

19 should be around r10 - that is the correct way to extend from the shimari you have there.
23 does nothing.
24 by him is a bad move at this point of the game. You could definitely have left it. However, from watching this it is clear you have absolutely no clue how to handle the monkey jump - better read up on it now: http://senseis.xmp.net/?monkeyjump and http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump%2FIntoHighPosition
81 - You can cut him at r10 successfully.
93 is aji keshi - you can no longer cut him at r10. I'm sure you could read out that this cut doesn't work.
189 - empty triangle. K13 is a billion times better. Also, if you had read this sequence out, you could see that it ends in disaster for you.

Tyson2011 · #3

thank you for your post, out of curiousity, why is r10 better at move 19? not saying you are wrong, but at my level i dont see much difference, please elaborate?

thank you for your help on the monkey jump....yeahh i went about that completely wrong, this is helpful

aji keshi means? sorry im bad with terms at the moment...

Dusk Eagle · #4

Sure, I'll explain why r10 is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . a , B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . B . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Notice on the top right is the proper extension, and on the bottom is your extension. In the bottom, your marked stone is on the third line. Third line moves are a way of securing the territory you have - they do not respond well to trying to add more territory onto them. On the other hand, fourth line moves do not secure territory very well, but are good if you can get a follow-up move in farther down. In the bottom, you are extending from a third line stone, whereas in the top, you have a fifth line stone supporting your extension. Also, 'a' becomes a good follow-up move for you.

It may not appear obvious right now, but trust me - when you have two stones on top of each other like this, their natural direction is to start extending the other way and make your framework "box-like" - it is far better to have a "box-like" framework (without investing too many moves...) than a flat piece of territory.

Aji keshi is a move which forces your opponent to fix their own bad aji - that is, it forces them to fix a weakness in their shape. The example in your game is a good one. If you had played R10, then after S10 R9 S9 Q9, you will capture either white's one stone or white's three stones on the bottom. However, after playing P10, it forced white to play Q9, and now your cut at R10 no longer works. So, instead of P10, you should have played R10, or played elsewhere and saved R10 for later. By playing P10, you can never play R10 ever again.

I hope that wasn't too convoluted. I can't quite seem to make what I'm trying to say clear right now, but hopefully you get the idea. If not, say so! I or someone with better communication skills than me ( :razz:

) will help you out

.

Tyson2011 · #5

i can understand you on the aji keshi subject, but your fuseki logic confuses me greatly :/, i have much growing to do.

fwiffo · #6

The best book on the opening is Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo. It's absolutely worth your time.

Tyson2011 · #7

will look into that, thank you very much

judicata · #8

fwiffo wrote:

The best book on the opening is Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo. It's absolutely worth your time.

I'm a big fan of "In the Beginning" also. Just throwing that out there.

EdLee · #9

Hi Tyson,

Tyson2011 wrote:

your fuseki logic confuses me greatly :/

You want the bigger box.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ {LN C15 C10} $$ {LN D17 D10} $$ {LN P17 P10} $$ {LN R16 R10} $$ {LN C15 D17} $$ {LN C10 D10} $$ {LN P17 R16} $$ {LN P10 R10}[/go]

(Edited after learning {LN} from fwiffo.

)

fwiffo · **#10**

Or exploiting the new diagram features (arrows added to show the enclosures' primary direction of influence):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ sad flat box vs. happy tall box $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X C . . . . . , . . . . C . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ {LN C15 C10} $$ {LN D17 D10} $$ {LN P17 P10} $$ {LN R16 R10} $$ {LN C15 D17} $$ {LN C10 D10} $$ {LN P17 R16} $$ {LN P10 R10} $$ {AR D16 H16} $$ {AR Q16 Q12}[/go]

Chew Terr · **#11**

Again to summarize, walls 'cast a shadow'. You want to put your extension at the very tip of the shadow. That means, the taller the wall, the further the safe extension. Of course big frameworks are better if they're not unreasonable, so you want the wall that casts the best shadow, plus the proper extension. When looking for a wall's 'direction of play', I just see which side has the bigger shadow.

Edit: Fwiffo makes really pretty diagrams, but I like metaphors =)

Tyson2011 · **#12**

ahh...i think that makes a little more sense

, thanks guys!

Loons · **#13**

Just 'cause no one else seems to mention it... 9 here feels funny to me. I don't really play that family of joseki, but I'd be tempted to press at Q7, extend or just directly tenuki and approach another corner.

...And the resulting framework on the lower board after your next couple of moves feels fragile to me, but I don't feel I'm strong enough to comment in detail on that.

EdLee · **#14**

Hi fwiffo,

The tags {LN} and {AR} are nice!
What other secret keywords are missing from the thread,
"How to make diagrams", viewtopic.php?f=5&t=226

Is there a complete list of keywords somewhere?

Thanks.

fwiffo · **#15**

It uses the same code as Sensei's library, so you can take a look at the Sensei's page on how diagrams work. That page misses a few options related searching, but you can read about them on the Sensei's help page on position search. We don't have a position search function here, but you can use those options in your diagrams.

Tyson2011 · **#16**

Loons wrote:

Just 'cause no one else seems to mention it... 9 here feels funny to me. I don't really play that family of joseki, but I'd be tempted to press at Q7, extend or just directly tenuki and approach another corner.

i am also not familiar with this joseki...seeing as i have never studied any... i am planning on it once school gets out however, i simply dont have time right now :/

LR24 · **#17**

Concerning white 8 and the response:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Kogo says black usually plays 1 (Shusaku diagonal) so he can press against white's stone at a. This is why I think white should not tenuki :mrgreen:

. As Loons said, playing a right away could be right.
White 2 is not included into Kogo, but the following is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .[/go]

Concerning the game, maybe this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a b . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 d . 3 c , . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The a-b exchange is not that big, but annoying. Maybe play 3 at c?
The thing is, if you want to extend along the top, you should probably have played 1 at d. So I think Loons is probably right with pressing at Q7/a in the first diagram. (i'm not that strong either, so better not believe everything I say

)

Tyson2011 · **#18**

in your first diagram... could:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

also be used effectively? the rest of your post makes quite a bit of sense

....at my skill level, a at that place seems stronger though?

LR24 · **#19**

I think it depends on the position and also on what black wants. Your move makes sense to me because it does not let white get the left side for eye space, thus it's a stronger attack that probably makes white live in the corner or get into the center. On the other hand, the move from kogo rather goes for a big influence on the top side.

Also, after white played 2, you cannot attack the group very severely, as white can play 4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Also, the move from kogo was rather meant if white tenuki. And here, kogo gives there three options, which also includes your move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . . $$ | . . c . . . . . . .[/go]

Jonas · **#20**

Hey folks!
When you're questioning certain moves i guess you need to consider first the ideas of the moves that were played before the questioned move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

When I play the shusaku-kosumi I want thickness on the outside while my opponent gets low(third-line) territory. Therefore a move around 'a' for black should be top priority when white plays tenuki and black get the chance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . b 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 5 . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . .[/go]

White does not crawl at 'b' but tries to be ahead so he plays 2. For the same reason (gettingahead) black now plays 3 continuing to press white down. White cant cut directly because of his weak position so he simply secures life with 4 and 6 while black gets his wished thickness.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Well when I play white I dont like to play along blacks plan, so for white playing '2' himself to jump a line higher (fourth line) is totally natural.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . .[/go]

Moves like 'a' or 'b' for black are of course possible, depending on what is one the lower side of the board these moves can even be very good, but for me on the first glance these moves dont feel natural, because they're not helping black to build strong thickness (as planed when playing kosumi) but are forcing white to seperate blacks stones into two groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . $$ | . 2 3 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The game was played like this. I think 2 and 3 are both mistakes in this early stage of the game. White needs to extend on the side (as mentioned f.e. at 'a'). Grasping some small points in the corner with 2 is to slow, black should tenuki! Answering with 3 is also questionable, bumping whites stone is forcing him to play 4, a very good point (in the endgame). In the end blacks 3 stone helped white to get some points, nothing more

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Personally in this kind of position I like the 3 space low pincer. It isnt that popular nowadays but the acient go masters were quiet fond of it

Maybe you can post another game of yours and we'll analyse it again, guess there was said enough about this game ^_^

very very messy.... (11k vs 12k)

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