It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:08 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:56 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 98
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 2k Tygem 2D
KGS: Hades12, locust
Tygem: shiva
So I am currently ranked at 2 kyu on KGS. However, I hopped on my old Tygem account (where I have held shodan for quite a while and ranked up to 2D easily, and now at this level my record is five wins with only one loss. So I'm fairly sure I will get to 3D. I've always heard that Tygem is a 2 stone difference from KGS but FOUR stones? This blows my mind. I've realized that Tygem players, while loving to fight, don't pay attention to basic tesuji and single digit kyu life and death. Has anyone else seen or felt such a difference in level of reading on Tygem? Have you guys experienced or heard of such huge rank discrepancies? (sp?)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:12 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2747
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 544
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Hades12 wrote:
So I am currently ranked at 2 kyu on KGS. However, I hopped on my old Tygem account (where I have held shodan for quite a while and ranked up to 2D easily, and now at this level my record is five wins with only one loss. So I'm fairly sure I will get to 3D. I've always heard that Tygem is a 2 stone difference from KGS but FOUR stones? This blows my mind. I've realized that Tygem players, while loving to fight, don't pay attention to basic tesuji and single digit kyu life and death. Has anyone else seen or felt such a difference in level of reading on Tygem? Have you guys experienced or heard of such huge rank discrepancies? (sp?)


Yes. 4 stones is consistent with what I see. In some cases, it might be more.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #3 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:17 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 98
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 2k Tygem 2D
KGS: Hades12, locust
Tygem: shiva
oren wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
So I am currently ranked at 2 kyu on KGS. However, I hopped on my old Tygem account (where I have held shodan for quite a while and ranked up to 2D easily, and now at this level my record is five wins with only one loss. So I'm fairly sure I will get to 3D. I've always heard that Tygem is a 2 stone difference from KGS but FOUR stones? This blows my mind. I've realized that Tygem players, while loving to fight, don't pay attention to basic tesuji and single digit kyu life and death. Has anyone else seen or felt such a difference in level of reading on Tygem? Have you guys experienced or heard of such huge rank discrepancies? (sp?)


Yes. 4 stones is consistent with what I see. In some cases, it might be more.


So why the huge difference in strength? I'll make a generalized statement here: since most KGS players are westerners, is the difference because of style and different strengths in different areas of go?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #4 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:22 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2252
Liked others: 1168
Was liked: 536
Hades12 wrote:
So why the huge difference in strength?

the strength is the same, the numbers are different.


This post by xed_over was liked by 3 people: Bantari, Bonobo, cobrahc
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #5 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:25 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 98
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 2k Tygem 2D
KGS: Hades12, locust
Tygem: shiva
xed_over wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
So why the huge difference in strength?

the strength is the same, the numbers are different.


However I've met some players on KGS the same rank as myself who do much worse on tygem? so why do some people do much better, other far worse?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #6 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:48 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
I am a KGS 3-4Kyu. I rarely play on Tygem, but my account is at 9K, and when I do play there I end up losing about half of my games. When I lose it is usually because of a misread after a huge fight that resulted from continuous unreasonable aggressive moves. My own experience is that the players at 9k on Tygem have virtually zero strategic knowledge, but are pretty decent readers and fighters. I tend to avoid playing there because I feel like less of a player losing at 9k. It is probably a really good way to improve my reading though.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #7 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:12 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 98
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 1
Rank: KGS 2k Tygem 2D
KGS: Hades12, locust
Tygem: shiva
DJLLAP wrote:
I am a KGS 3-4Kyu. I rarely play on Tygem, but my account is at 9K, and when I do play there I end up losing about half of my games. When I lose it is usually because of a misread after a huge fight that resulted from continuous unreasonable aggressive moves. My own experience is that the players at 9k on Tygem have virtually zero strategic knowledge, but are pretty decent readers and fighters. I tend to avoid playing there because I feel like less of a player losing at 9k. It is probably a really good way to improve my reading though.


I would recommend you start a new account and set your rank to 3k and see how you do from there. At the lower ranks there are a lot of sandbaggers.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #8 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:28 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Hades12 wrote:
xed_over wrote:
Hades12 wrote:
So why the huge difference in strength?

the strength is the same, the numbers are different.


However I've met some players on KGS the same rank as myself who do much worse on tygem? so why do some people do much better, other far worse?


Ranking system is just different, and that's that. This has been discussed at length on the forums, so just read the old posts.

Like you said, the rank difference varies from case to case. That's because the rank systems are different. Trying to compare them is like measuring the weight of an apple with a ruler.

For what it's worth, I am 1d on KGS and 3d on tygem.

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #9 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:08 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 579
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 28
KGS: 3D
Tygem: 5D
I am 1D on KGS and 5D on Tygem. There are servers even worse, where I know people of my strength to be 8D/7D's. Basically your rank means nothing, it's only value is within the referred group. One day I would like a standardized computer programm like Zen, Aya & Co. to be a kind of benchmark, playing on all servers and making sure all ranks are about the same. I have no idea about the math behind it, but the idea is to have a fixed strength called S (defining it as "1d" for example) and then evaluate all players based on their performances directly or indirectly based on S. As it is now, one must be careful, because if some dude tells you he's 8D it could be a 1k in fact^^.


This post by Pippen was liked by: 1/7,000,000,000
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:25 am 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Pippen wrote:
I am 1D on KGS and 5D on Tygem. There are servers even worse, where I know people of my strength to be 8D/7D's. Basically your rank means nothing, it's only value is within the referred group. One day I would like a standardized computer programm like Zen, Aya & Co. to be a kind of benchmark, playing on all servers and making sure all ranks are about the same. I have no idea about the math behind it, but the idea is to have a fixed strength called S (defining it as "1d" for example) and then evaluate all players based on their performances directly or indirectly based on S. As it is now, one must be careful, because if some dude tells you he's 8D it could be a 1k in fact^^.


KGS and Tygem ranking systems are based on different models. For KGS, game history and time have a more significant impact on your rank, whereas with Tygem, only a set number of past games are taken into account (so it is more volatile). So if you create some sort of benchmark, that benchmark will have to select some model on which to base its rank calculation. It could be similar to KGS, taking into account recent games, for example. Or it might be more like Tygem, taking into account only the results of the last 20 games you played. Or it could be a new system altogether.

But selecting such a baseline would simply give you a rank for people according to the model that you select - if your model for the baseline ranking system is closer to KGS's algorithm, the ranks will have a distribution similar to KGS ranks; if your model for the baseline ranking system is closer to Tygem's, the ranks will have a distribution similar to Tygem's. Or if your model is something new, well, it will give a different rank distribution.

Unless you are making a new model for evaluating ranks, we already have "baseline" systems in place - which result in the rank distributions given by KGS users and by Tygem users.

So I think it's much simpler, when you want to know someone's rank, to simply say, "I'm 1-dan on KGS", or perhaps, "I'm 5-dan on Tygem", etc. Having a new baseline system can tell you, "I'm X-dan on this new baseline system", but it doesn't seem to add value to the existing ranking system, unless you've developed a better model for evaluating rank.

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:53 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 579
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 28
KGS: 3D
Tygem: 5D
Kirby wrote:
So if you create some sort of benchmark, that benchmark will have to select some model on which to base its rank calculation. It could be similar to KGS, taking into account recent games, for example. Or it might be more like Tygem, taking into account only the results of the last 20 games you played. Or it could be a new system altogether.

But selecting such a baseline would simply give you a rank for people according to the model that you select - if your model for the baseline ranking system is closer to KGS's algorithm, the ranks will have a distribution similar to KGS ranks; if your model for the baseline ranking system is closer to Tygem's, the ranks will have a distribution similar to Tygem's.


I do not believe that, though I have nothing to back it up :). KGS and Tygem - even with their different models - would get a lot closer if they have a common benchmark. That'd be my guess.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #12 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:27 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 602
Location: Denver, CO
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 47
Rank: 1 kyu KGS
Universal go server handle: djllap
Hades12 wrote:

I would recommend you start a new account and set your rank to 3k and see how you do from there. At the lower ranks there are a lot of sandbaggers.



I started a new account just now and won my first game as 1 dan. Ain't that a kick.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #13 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:37 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2747
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 544
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
DJLLAP wrote:
Hades12 wrote:

I would recommend you start a new account and set your rank to 3k and see how you do from there. At the lower ranks there are a lot of sandbaggers.



I started a new account just now and won my first game as 1 dan. Ain't that a kick.


Try to make a new one at 3d and you may win that as well. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #14 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:23 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
I used to have an account on Tygem, or so I seem to remember, so I went to SL to find the link to the server. There are two, one Korean and one Japanese. I clicked on each and go a connection refused message. Are those links up to date?

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #15 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:28 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Pippen wrote:
I do not believe that, though I have nothing to back it up :). KGS and Tygem - even with their different models - would get a lot closer if they have a common benchmark. That'd be my guess.


All I'm saying is that your "common benchmark" will not be any better than the existing systems on KGS and Tygem, unless your ranking system is better. You could take the existing KGS ranking system and call it a "common benchmark". You could take the existing Tygem system and call it a "common benchmark", too. Making a new benchmark to measure is arbitrary, unless the system is better than what already exists.


oren wrote:
Try to make a new one at 3d and you may win that as well. :)


How's your game record on that 5d account you made?

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #16 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:39 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2747
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 544
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Kirby wrote:
How's your game record on that 5d account you made?


Unfortunately just the one game so far still.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #17 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:53 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
oren wrote:
Kirby wrote:
How's your game record on that 5d account you made?


Unfortunately just the one game so far still.


Well, I guess once you play more games, you can let us know if the strengths are as random as you suggest.

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #18 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:48 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1833
Location: Bellevue, WA
Liked others: 89
Was liked: 820
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Well when it's 10am on a Sunday here and 2am on a Monday there...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #19 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:09 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2747
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 544
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Kirby wrote:
Well, I guess once you play more games, you can let us know if the strengths are as random as you suggest.


Also since handicap games aren't rated games there, I don't think ranks are at all stone differences, so that also makes it hard to do any direct comparison where KGS has quite a number of ranked handicap games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Four Stone Difference from KGS to Tygem?
Post #20 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:11 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
oren wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Well, I guess once you play more games, you can let us know if the strengths are as random as you suggest.


Also since handicap games aren't rated games there, I don't think ranks are at all stone differences, so that also makes it hard to do any direct comparison where KGS has quite a number of ranked handicap games.


Yes, I agree. They are hard to compare directly.

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group