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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #41 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
uPWarrior wrote:
[

The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.


My thinking is: Because CS will be played on a fixed hardware and time setting on all go servers, it will have a certain equal strength - everywhere. If one calls this strength "1d" and uses it as an anchor then all servers should get the same ranking.


The first part already happens. The issue is that there are several "one"s calling this strength different things.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #42 Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
oren wrote:
Pippen wrote:
Why don't those servers just use bots with a specific hardware config. as anchors?


How does that solve it when every server will think they have the best starting point?


My - naive - idea would be like: Take Crazystone 2013 on a computer with hardware x. Then let it play regularly on IGS, KGS and Tygem and use ONLY this program as an anchor. Simplified: Who wins against CS would be rated higher as CS and so would who does win against someone who won against CS; people that lose against CS or lose against people that lost to CS would ranked lower and so on (that's just a simplification to show my point). With a system like that I could imagine a system with consistent ranks between servers. Again: I'm a complete greenhorn here, because I'm not a programmer or mathematician, so maybe there are big flaws in my idea. I just would like the idea of a unified rank system and computer programs seem a good way to do that - at least for me.


Question (and I think interesting): Would Crazystone be the same strength when giving or taking handicaps as even? I know humans often aren't, especially in the kyu ranks, but would Crazystone have the same win rate against players 2 stones stronger than it as players that can play it evenly?

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #43 Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:45 am 
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uPWarrior wrote:
Pippen wrote:
uPWarrior wrote:
[

The big flaw in your idea: What is the correct rank for Crazystone? KGS will say X, Tygem will say Y and guess what, they are both right.


My thinking is: Because CS will be played on a fixed hardware and time setting on all go servers, it will have a certain equal strength - everywhere. If one calls this strength "1d" and uses it as an anchor then all servers should get the same ranking.


The first part already happens. The issue is that there are several "one"s calling this strength different things.


Also, the way that the rating systems work on the different servers, they may not even use anchors as such. Tygem, for example, looks at your w/l record for the last 20 or so games only.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #44 Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:22 am 
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1. Go strength is fairly universal.
Meaning: If you've developed your skills at go, where ever you go, you will be playing at similar strength, and you can perceive other players as stronger or weaker than you're. When comparing your subjective experiences of different opponents with other players experiences of the same opponents, there should be a strong rank correlation, which can be hypothesized to be explained by difference in skill.

2. Go strength is based on several components
Meaning: Your skill of the game is not made from a single factor, but it has several factors which create a fairly static average performance. For an example your memory functions when performing long reading exercises can be compared with other players, your ability to benefit from time per move may have a difference in comparison to your opponent. As another example, you may have quicker executive functions while reading. You may perform an interference series at quick speed. There are lots of factors. I don't claim to know which ones matter most. The claim here is that there are several of them.

3. Go strength has a fairly low degree of opposition
Explanation: Your strength components oppositon to the components of other players don't have a strong degree of opposition, your expectancy of winning is rather derived from your universal stregth, than the opposition of your strength components and opponent's strength components, but these factors modulate your winning expectancy.

Sidepoint: This is part of strength universality claim, as the inverse of universal strength is local strength, strength based entirely on circumstances. So strength is fairly universal and has a low degree of opposition. But it's still worth a distinct point.

If there were competing schools of strategy/tactics, then perhaps there could be a stronger degree opposition, but that's not really the case, as far as I understand. However it's not that the seperate schools would simply induce opposition, rather it's both, if there were opposition, it would create a logical platform to support competing schools, so their absence is evidence against high degree of strength opposition. The components themselves may have some degree of opposition, but it may blend with the players. (You should think of playing 9x9 or 19x19 as an example but they're not really the same game)

But still some players will be better at life and death, others will better at strategy, wholeboard thinking. The relative value of this components changes the opposition. Players also optimize to their own strongpoints with their own play, even if they would be bad at it. As as sidepoint, the components maybe correlated with each other, so there's factor which causes lots of components (like high overall or general intelligence). Notice that the flocked components reduce he effect of opposition instead of increasing it.

4. Go strength is quite strongly uniform
Meaning: That if there is a difference between players strength, it can be quantified in such a way, that you can find a consistency between different ranks. This is what it means in a more concrete example: Let's generate a player A with static strength. Then let's reach to the pool of players, and find one who will have a 80% winning rate against player A. Let's call him player B. Now let's use the same value and find player C, who can beat player B at 80% winning rate. It is obvious that these players can be found, but what's not obvious that if A,B,C and have this relationship, then we can estimate the winning rate between players A and C. That is what uniform strength means in this context. So the claim is Go strength is fairly uniform, which allows the possibility consistent ranking systems from low to high strength. However there is, as far as I know, asymmetry. Outcomes become less random as players get stronger. This expectation can also be derived with the following interference: If really low strength means making lots of mistakes (closer to randomness), and really high strength means making very accurate and closer to optimal moves, then the degree of randomness decreases as players get stronger. This is hugely important because it changes the skill distance between player A and B in respect to B and C, even if they exist, which also means different ratios for A and C.

However the game of go is capable of supporting the handicap system fairly well. This is strong evidence for stongly uniform go strength, but not for absolute uniformity, which is in my opinion practically impossible.

Time as factor
Playing the game with different time settings is hard to fit into this perspective, because in my opinion, the game is not the same if you change the time settings, but it's complicated. And right now I don't feel like trying to analyze this any further. :D

Alright these are the main claims about go. Now to ranking systems. Some ranking systems may be more flawed than others in that they're less good at really estimating players winning expectancy or finding the most appropriate relative rank for a player. They may have these different aspects of go strength incorrectly included in their mathematics, which may cause slight distortions in the ranks. For an example you might find that there's a longer distance between 3d and 4d on some server than there is on some other server. Or you might find that there's a tiny percentual difference between winning changes with handicap stones in relation to otherwise.

In addition to this playerbases are different. Tygem is rather an asian server. Go is also a more popular game in the eastern countries. That means the player population can be expected to be less specialized at go, as in less a niche group (not necessarily strength-correlated niche) and players might be more casual. This might translate into the strengths of the playerbase. Even the time of day may be a factor.

It might be hard to directly compare different servers even if they had identical ranking systems. However they don't have identical ranking systems, which makes the comparisons even harder. Rank labels are not equivalent to player strength, but you could assume they are strongly correlated, but not by labels with the same name. So you could make a general statement like the ones made in this thread, that (with DAN ranks) KGS rank = Tygem Rank + 2, so 1 DAN kgs would be 3 Dan tygem. You can expect this claim to be somewhat consistent, if it's based on collected data, but you should expect some kind of error margin, which may appear in the form of distorted uniformity so you might not find the same distance between the ranks at all levels (like high dans might have a longer distance between them), or simply congruence (like low 1 dan, high 2 dan) if you're not making claims more specifically.


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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #45 Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:19 pm 
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zack wrote:
1. Go strength is fairly universal.
Meaning: If you've developed your skills at go, where ever you go, you will be playing at similar strength, and you can perceive other players as stronger or weaker than you're. When comparing your subjective experiences of different opponents with other players experiences of the same opponents, there should be a strong rank correlation, which can be hypothesized to be explained by difference in skill.

2. Go strength is based on several components
Meaning: Your skill of the game is not made from a single factor, but it has several factors which create a fairly static average performance. For an example your memory functions when performing long reading exercises can be compared with other players, your ability to benefit from time per move may have a difference in comparison to your opponent. As another example, you may have quicker executive functions while reading. You may perform an interference series at quick speed. There are lots of factors. I don't claim to know which ones matter most. The claim here is that there are several of them.

3. Go strength has a fairly low degree of opposition
Explanation: Your strength components oppositon to the components of other players don't have a strong degree of opposition, your expectancy of winning is rather derived from your universal stregth, than the opposition of your strength components and opponent's strength components, but these factors modulate your winning expectancy.

Sidepoint: This is part of strength universality claim, as the inverse of universal strength is local strength, strength based entirely on circumstances. So strength is fairly universal and has a low degree of opposition. But it's still worth a distinct point.

If there were competing schools of strategy/tactics, then perhaps there could be a stronger degree opposition, but that's not really the case, as far as I understand. However it's not that the seperate schools would simply induce opposition, rather it's both, if there were opposition, it would create a logical platform to support competing schools, so their absence is evidence against high degree of strength opposition. The components themselves may have some degree of opposition, but it may blend with the players. (You should think of playing 9x9 or 19x19 as an example but they're not really the same game)

But still some players will be better at life and death, others will better at strategy, wholeboard thinking. The relative value of this components changes the opposition. Players also optimize to their own strongpoints with their own play, even if they would be bad at it. As as sidepoint, the components maybe correlated with each other, so there's factor which causes lots of components (like high overall or general intelligence). Notice that the flocked components reduce he effect of opposition instead of increasing it.

4. Go strength is quite strongly uniform
Meaning: That if there is a difference between players strength, it can be quantified in such a way, that you can find a consistency between different ranks. This is what it means in a more concrete example: Let's generate a player A with static strength. Then let's reach to the pool of players, and find one who will have a 80% winning rate against player A. Let's call him player B. Now let's use the same value and find player C, who can beat player B at 80% winning rate. It is obvious that these players can be found, but what's not obvious that if A,B,C and have this relationship, then we can estimate the winning rate between players A and C. That is what uniform strength means in this context. So the claim is Go strength is fairly uniform, which allows the possibility consistent ranking systems from low to high strength. However there is, as far as I know, asymmetry. Outcomes become less random as players get stronger. This expectation can also be derived with the following interference: If really low strength means making lots of mistakes (closer to randomness), and really high strength means making very accurate and closer to optimal moves, then the degree of randomness decreases as players get stronger. This is hugely important because it changes the skill distance between player A and B in respect to B and C, even if they exist, which also means different ratios for A and C.

However the game of go is capable of supporting the handicap system fairly well. This is strong evidence for stongly uniform go strength, but not for absolute uniformity, which is in my opinion practically impossible.

Time as factor
Playing the game with different time settings is hard to fit into this perspective, because in my opinion, the game is not the same if you change the time settings, but it's complicated. And right now I don't feel like trying to analyze this any further. :D

Alright these are the main claims about go. Now to ranking systems. Some ranking systems may be more flawed than others in that they're less good at really estimating players winning expectancy or finding the most appropriate relative rank for a player. They may have these different aspects of go strength incorrectly included in their mathematics, which may cause slight distortions in the ranks. For an example you might find that there's a longer distance between 3d and 4d on some server than there is on some other server. Or you might find that there's a tiny percentual difference between winning changes with handicap stones in relation to otherwise.

In addition to this playerbases are different. Tygem is rather an asian server. Go is also a more popular game in the eastern countries. That means the player population can be expected to be less specialized at go, as in less a niche group (not necessarily strength-correlated niche) and players might be more casual. This might translate into the strengths of the playerbase. Even the time of day may be a factor.

It might be hard to directly compare different servers even if they had identical ranking systems. However they don't have identical ranking systems, which makes the comparisons even harder. Rank labels are not equivalent to player strength, but you could assume they are strongly correlated, but not by labels with the same name. So you could make a general statement like the ones made in this thread, that (with DAN ranks) KGS rank = Tygem Rank + 2, so 1 DAN kgs would be 3 Dan tygem. You can expect this claim to be somewhat consistent, if it's based on collected data, but you should expect some kind of error margin, which may appear in the form of distorted uniformity so you might not find the same distance between the ranks at all levels (like high dans might have a longer distance between them), or simply congruence (like low 1 dan, high 2 dan) if you're not making claims more specifically.


Mind=just blown :o

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #46 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:15 pm 
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It is hard to say. I'm 3kyu Tygem, 4kyu IGS, 5kyu KGS, though if I played on KGS my rank there might be much better.

The ranks in Tygem feel less artificial than IGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #47 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:41 pm 
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I am now a 5D-Tygem and 1D-KGS. I think it's safe to say that around dan level Tygem ranks are KGS-rank+3. I also think that KGS's pathetic ranking system keeps players underachiving.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #48 Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
I am now a 5D-Tygem and 1D-KGS. I think it's safe to say that around dan level Tygem ranks are KGS-rank+3. I also think that KGS's pathetic ranking system keeps players underachiving.

So, you feel you play weaker on KGS that on Tygem?

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #49 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:06 am 
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Bantari wrote:
Pippen wrote:
I am now a 5D-Tygem and 1D-KGS. I think it's safe to say that around dan level Tygem ranks are KGS-rank+3. I also think that KGS's pathetic ranking system keeps players underachiving.

So, you feel you play weaker on KGS that on Tygem?


No, not really. I have no idea, maybe it's KGS' ranking system? I know people that are 1d at KGS and 4d on Tygem, so it's not really a shocker. It's weird though, because it can be pretty misleading. Imagine I tell some guy I am 5D and he's impressed, because he's a 1d-KGS and wants some lessons/advice and then finds out we're actually even. As I heard WBaduk is even weirder, some 6d there can be 1d at KGS....

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #50 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:20 am 
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Pippen wrote:
No, not really. I have no idea, maybe it's KGS' ranking system? I know people that are 1d at KGS and 4d on Tygem, so it's not really a shocker. It's weird though, because it can be pretty misleading. Imagine I tell some guy I am 5D and he's impressed, because he's a 1d-KGS and wants some lessons/advice and then finds out we're actually even. As I heard WBaduk is even weirder, some 6d there can be 1d at KGS....


Playing on both you realize that KGS is trying to keep ranks at handicap stones apart and uses many handicap games in calculations while Tygem is all even games (or at least a huge majority)? It's very unlikely it would come to same distribution.

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Post #51 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:25 pm 
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Pippen wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Pippen wrote:
I am now a 5D-Tygem and 1D-KGS. I think it's safe to say that around dan level Tygem ranks are KGS-rank+3. I also think that KGS's pathetic ranking system keeps players underachiving.

So, you feel you play weaker on KGS that on Tygem?


No, not really. I have no idea, maybe it's KGS' ranking system? I know people that are 1d at KGS and 4d on Tygem, so it's not really a shocker. It's weird though, because it can be pretty misleading. Imagine I tell some guy I am 5D and he's impressed, because he's a 1d-KGS and wants some lessons/advice and then finds out we're actually even. As I heard WBaduk is even weirder, some 6d there can be 1d at KGS....

Yeah, I can understand that, but... This is why you also need to provide reference for your rank. There is no such thing as "1d", really, you have to qualify that further. If you are going around telling people you are "5d" and nothing else, it is not the rating system that confuses people but you who misrepresent yourself.

Anyways... no biggie. The guy who asks you for a lesson will find out soon enough, I guess.

PS>
Reminds me when back in the day, IGS ranking system was much tougher that any other, by 3 or 4 or more stones, I think. Like an AGA 5d would be 1-2d on IGS, something like that. This was sort-of by design, the highest rank you could register was 4d, so all those strong players were 4d, and to get to 6d you needed to be a pro or something. If memory serves correctly. IGS people at that time seemed to take it as a tremendous advantage of "their" system, and were sometimes even looking down upon all the "easy" ranks bestowed all over the place and "play ranks". In particular, KGS rank was sometimes ridiculed.

Now KGS rank is stronger than for example Tygem (and even stronger than or comparable to IGS in dan ranges) - but instead of taking it as something to be proud of, having such tough ranking system and not giving out 5d and 6d ranks to weak players willy-nilly left and right like Tygem does - people complain.

It seems this is how the world turns these days.
People complain, no matter what, nothing is ever good. If not ranks, then escapers, if not escapers, then admins, if not admins, then a beep sound... complain complain complain. Must be a new fashion or something. I feel I am getting old.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #52 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:36 pm 
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oren wrote:
Pippen wrote:
No, not really. I have no idea, maybe it's KGS' ranking system? I know people that are 1d at KGS and 4d on Tygem, so it's not really a shocker. It's weird though, because it can be pretty misleading. Imagine I tell some guy I am 5D and he's impressed, because he's a 1d-KGS and wants some lessons/advice and then finds out we're actually even. As I heard WBaduk is even weirder, some 6d there can be 1d at KGS....


Playing on both you realize that KGS is trying to keep ranks at handicap stones apart and uses many handicap games in calculations while Tygem is all even games (or at least a huge majority)? It's very unlikely it would come to same distribution.


The rankings on IGS and KGS feel artificial to me, I think it is the emergent boundary effect caused by the handicap stone ratings. As for style of play, I think their is a difference in style of play. For KGS I think it is sort of a population bottle neck problem, where most players learned from Sensei's library, and that one PDF on shape, for IGS I think it is the Japanese style, again hoshi stones and handicaps are emphasized. Interesting things happen when you only play even games.

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 Post subject: Re: Rank Conversion
Post #53 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:38 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
There is no such thing as "1d", really, you have to qualify that further.


I agree. One would need a strength list or ranking graph. Then it would follow this in my case (numbers are arbitrary, but I hope you get the point): On KGS I'd be 1d and number 1000 of 3000 accounts. On Tygem I'd be 5d and number 3000 of 9000 accounts. So everyone could easily see my "real" strength and wouldn't be fooled by the specific ranking of a server.

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