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 Post subject: How can we improve the League?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:29 pm 
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Hi, I'd like to start this thread to see what can be done to improve Insei League. October is my third month in League.

1. Lectures

- To my disappointment I found out there are fewer lectures by pro players. In September I haven't seen Hajin's lectures and Younggil gave only 2 or so lectures. There were lots of lectures for kyu players instead but they cant replace lectures by pro players. I mean this was one of the most important reasons to join the league to have lectures by korean pro players.

- Now crowis, sometimes make game reviews after the game was played, but also very few people watch them because they are not in schedule. I think he should make reviews separate from games on fixed times so that more players can watch them. They are really good!

2. League activity

- I already talked about this with Alex. The activity is very low. This might be due to different reasons. My proposal was to make daily tournament on fixed time so that players know that at this time they can always find a player to play and not wait ours for a game.

So I will start with these two, feel free to add something you thinks should be changed/improved.


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Post #2 Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:03 pm 
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I agree with the sentiment. I am rather dissappointed that there was no lectures from Hajin last month, and the number of classes by Youngil was rather limited.

My incentive to saty in the league will certainly grow significantly with more pro lectures!


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Post #3 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:25 am 
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One thing would be great, I think. In simultaneous against teachers, pupils should be able to choose between handicap stones and komi handicap.

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Post #4 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:23 am 
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When I joined I was expecting a more school-like environment, where the teachers prepared a clear, concise set of material for me to study in addition to playing in the league. This is how the go schools around here (I live in China) operate, and this is the general feeing I have as an amateur who tends to learn from reading books. Not having a clear-cut "path" to follow felt strange to me.

I also expected a lot more personal attention from the teachers. As far as I know, the student-teacher interaction is basically just reviews of simul games and some of the league games. Further, as there are a large number of games played in the league sometimes students will not receive a review until six to seven weeks after the game has been played. For example, if I play a game on the first day of September, and do not receive a review until October 14th, it is six weeks. I feel for me it is difficult to really learn like that, to really make the connection.

For my personal situation I ended up buying a large number of go books over the past month to help me learn and study the game. In conversations with many other league players I learned many of them pay for lessons with other teachers as well. Because, learning basic sequences from reviews and reviews only can feel a little slow.

In my situation for example, out of the 20 or so games I played in september, I only saw reviews of 3 of those games so far.

So it seems, there are three main ways which I would like to see the league improve.

1. Some sort of structured learning plan, so that I do not have to self-direct my study to the degree that I do.

2. More and/or equal attention from the teachers. Admittedly I was not on during the main times simuls were offered. But this could have been compensated by giving more reviews of the games I did play, for example. Or playing a game with me one on one. (It's my first month so I am still wondering if I will be receiving more reviews.)

3. Faster play-review cycle. If I have to wait 6 weeks to get a game review it seems very strange to me.

Unfortunately due to the number of students in the league it can be very difficult to administrate the league. I am well aware of this as I actually run a real-life league of 57 students in a well-known private school here. I could really use 2 other teachers to help me out! Ha! So I know how it feels guys!

Anyways given what I said, I wonder... the league, even with it's "flaws", is still a very interesting way to study, and I am willing to try it for at least another couple of months.

From my experiences creating the ASR league system, and running a real life league of similar proportions to the korean insei style league, probably the best thing that can be done ATM is:

Cancel all prizes for C, D and E leagues (and maybe B league) and have teachers play more games with those students and teach them more, spend more time with them in stead of paying them money.

Canceling B, C, D and E prizes will save $600! This money would be better spent on an extra sixty game reviews for the members of B, C, D and E, or hiring another teacher so that reviews can be given within 2 or 3 days, at the longest, of a league game being played. This is probably the best and easiest change that can be made.

As it stands if someone wins $100 they will just spend it on another month in the league, therefore prizes in lower leagues only serve to delay a student's progress and learning in the league.

-


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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #5 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:23 am 
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1. Teaching structure

Teaching in Insei League consists mostly in reviewing games. So you don't have to wait 6 weeks to get your game commented by Alex but instead to ask your game to comment on one of these lectures. This was okey in previous months where Hajin and Younggil reviewed games from group A. I learnt a lot of things maybe more than from just lectures on theory.
So I think the current system works well I just hope there will be more reviews by pros.

2.
Quote:
I also expected a lot more personal attention from the teachers.


To get more personal attitude I think one should just play more games with teacher. For example after 5 or 6 games Crowis vs Syptryn, crowis recommended him to study end game as it's his weak part of the game.

3.
Quote:
Faster play-review cycle. If I have to wait 6 weeks to get a game review it seems very strange to me.


I agree. But taking into consideration how busy is Alex maybe this is what it takes. Well, maybe he could find another teacher for reviewing E-C groups so A-B groups would get faster reviews, the same goes for E-C groups.

4.
Quote:
Cancel all prizes for C, D and E leagues (and maybe B league) and have teachers play more games with those students and teach them more, spend more time with them in stead of paying them money.


There was a lot talking about money/prizes. Imho, I prefer not to have prizes in weaker groups E-C, but in A-B groups it gives motivation for stronger players to play more games and play them seriously, so I think it's good for weaker players.

Still for me major reason to play in league or not is entrance fee. I cannot really afford myself as many other players to pay 95$ a month. Maybe there should be a way to give discounts for players that stay for several months. Prizes are good but only few players can actually win them.

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #6 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:53 am 
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Let's face it guys. The Indei league of Alexander isn't what we expected to be.

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #7 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Stefany, please keep your unnecessary remarks to yourself, you have no relation (correct me if I'm wrong) to the league. We here discuss the problems and how can we improve the league. How can you state something if you haven't even participated in it?!


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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #8 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:15 pm 
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Stefany93 wrote:
Let's face it guys. The Indei league of Alexander isn't what we expected to be.


You're not in the league and you never were, so you don't really know what you are talking about.

MOD EDIT: KGS banning and reasoning is not relevant, and is unnecessarily defamatory with regards to keeping a civil atmosphere. --topazg

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #9 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:45 am 
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Stefany93 wrote:
Let's face it guys. The Indei league of Alexander isn't what we expected to be.



Well, I am not sure about the Indei League.

Insei League is good, just because it has some unperfect parts doesnt mean it is bad. Here we are trying to make it a better place. It is ok if someone comments the league, even if he didnt play in it. Unrelated comments are bad.

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #10 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:41 am 
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MOD HAT: In the interest of not letting this thread derail, I'd like to put in a couple of comments.

a) Stefany, please be constructive. I'm not sure you realise how some people may take offense at your comment, but remember this thread is about offering improvements, not criticising the current setup.

b) usagi, please keep further away from personal attacks.

c) Generally, if someone says something that you don't believe deserves a response, ignore it -- don't feed the trolls.

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:40 am 
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Dear Stevenson

We have 3 lectures of Younggil every month. Lee Hajin is busy recently, so she refused to continue. We replaced her lectures to Hwang Inseong's lectures. I guess, Hwang is not weaker at all (real 1st class insei)
If you know someone else from Korea, who can give us more lectures, I will be happy to inite him and pay.

League activity was a bit lower than usual in some groups in September, so I made groups bigger in October. Now it must be easier to find partners.
And again we have handicap division. You can meet members of other groups here, if nobody from your group is online

Stevenson wrote:
Hi, I'd like to start this thread to see what can be done to improve Insei League. October is my third month in League.

1. Lectures

- To my disappointment I found out there are fewer lectures by pro players. In September I haven't seen Hajin's lectures and Younggil gave only 2 or so lectures. There were lots of lectures for kyu players instead but they cant replace lectures by pro players. I mean this was one of the most important reasons to join the league to have lectures by korean pro players.

- Now crowis, sometimes make game reviews after the game was played, but also very few people watch them because they are not in schedule. I think he should make reviews separate from games on fixed times so that more players can watch them. They are really good!

2. League activity

- I already talked about this with Alex. The activity is very low. This might be due to different reasons. My proposal was to make daily tournament on fixed time so that players know that at this time they can always find a player to play and not wait ours for a game.

So I will start with these two, feel free to add something you thinks should be changed/improved.

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Go news: http://gosensations.com/
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Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #12 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:44 am 
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I enjoyed Hajin's lectures too.
Pls help me to find someone who speaks Eng and can replace her.
I contacted lot of pros (Vic1000, Cho Heeyang, Diana, Michael Redmond), but without success.


Syptryn wrote:
I agree with the sentiment. I am rather dissappointed that there was no lectures from Hajin last month, and the number of classes by Youngil was rather limited.

My incentive to saty in the league will certainly grow significantly with more pro lectures!

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Go news: http://gosensations.com/
Insei League on KGS: http://insei-league.com/
Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #13 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:48 am 
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Thx for interesting proposal.
We discussed it with teachers and it was accepted.
Now inseis have a choice

LovroKlc wrote:
One thing would be great, I think. In simultaneous against teachers, pupils should be able to choose between handicap stones and komi handicap.

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #14 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:56 am 
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I regularly get suggestions to change lectures from reviews format to lectures on fuseki, joseki and so on. It's possible, but I never saw such thing in Korea. I stayed in few schools and NEVER saw any lecture by professional teacher on ANY subject. They only review games.

For your own game reviews - please suggest them during online lectures. We have 35-40 lectures every month and part of them are dan-level reviews (for league games)

I am sorry for delay with Sep reviews. I have to send 60-70 games and it takes some time.

About prizes: We need them to force best inseis and even teachers to play better. You can be sure that every teacher want to beat you, not just play politely and show you honest moves. Yes, we use hamete, just because we want to win and get prizes.

usagi wrote:
When I joined I was expecting a more school-like environment, where the teachers prepared a clear, concise set of material for me to study in addition to playing in the league. This is how the go schools around here (I live in China) operate, and this is the general feeing I have as an amateur who tends to learn from reading books. Not having a clear-cut "path" to follow felt strange to me.

I also expected a lot more personal attention from the teachers. As far as I know, the student-teacher interaction is basically just reviews of simul games and some of the league games. Further, as there are a large number of games played in the league sometimes students will not receive a review until six to seven weeks after the game has been played. For example, if I play a game on the first day of September, and do not receive a review until October 14th, it is six weeks. I feel for me it is difficult to really learn like that, to really make the connection.

For my personal situation I ended up buying a large number of go books over the past month to help me learn and study the game. In conversations with many other league players I learned many of them pay for lessons with other teachers as well. Because, learning basic sequences from reviews and reviews only can feel a little slow.

In my situation for example, out of the 20 or so games I played in september, I only saw reviews of 3 of those games so far.

So it seems, there are three main ways which I would like to see the league improve.

1. Some sort of structured learning plan, so that I do not have to self-direct my study to the degree that I do.

2. More and/or equal attention from the teachers. Admittedly I was not on during the main times simuls were offered. But this could have been compensated by giving more reviews of the games I did play, for example. Or playing a game with me one on one. (It's my first month so I am still wondering if I will be receiving more reviews.)

3. Faster play-review cycle. If I have to wait 6 weeks to get a game review it seems very strange to me.

Unfortunately due to the number of students in the league it can be very difficult to administrate the league. I am well aware of this as I actually run a real-life league of 57 students in a well-known private school here. I could really use 2 other teachers to help me out! Ha! So I know how it feels guys!

Anyways given what I said, I wonder... the league, even with it's "flaws", is still a very interesting way to study, and I am willing to try it for at least another couple of months.

From my experiences creating the ASR league system, and running a real life league of similar proportions to the korean insei style league, probably the best thing that can be done ATM is:

Cancel all prizes for C, D and E leagues (and maybe B league) and have teachers play more games with those students and teach them more, spend more time with them in stead of paying them money.

Canceling B, C, D and E prizes will save $600! This money would be better spent on an extra sixty game reviews for the members of B, C, D and E, or hiring another teacher so that reviews can be given within 2 or 3 days, at the longest, of a league game being played. This is probably the best and easiest change that can be made.

As it stands if someone wins $100 they will just spend it on another month in the league, therefore prizes in lower leagues only serve to delay a student's progress and learning in the league.

-

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Go news: http://gosensations.com/
Insei League on KGS: http://insei-league.com/
Insei League on DGS: http://dgs.insei-league.com/

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 Post subject: Re: How can we improve the League?
Post #15 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Hi, Alex. Thanks for your answers.

Quote:
I enjoyed Hajin's lectures too.
Pls help me to find someone who speaks Eng and can replace her.
I contacted lot of pros (Vic1000, Cho Heeyang, Diana, Michael Redmond), but without success.


My call would be: Cho Seokbin (bin7674), Kwon hae kwang (aggressive), Rain Jang (gentlerain), Hong Seoulki, Lee Minho (greenpig), Oh Chi-Min (rustysword). All these players are 9d kgs level and would be great to have them to review games of dan players.

Also there was a thread (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=810) about opening Baduk Center in Budapest.

Quote:
I am Kim Sung-Rae 8p from Korea.

Three Korean Professional players including me are in Budapest, Hungary. The teachers are:
Sung-rae Kim 8P, Yeong-sin Lee 8P, and Ju-yeon Go 8p.
If someone are interested in Baduk Center, contact to my address srk1119@hotmail.com


Maybe it's possible to get in touch with them.

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Post #16 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:19 pm 
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Finally Kim Sangrae, 8p agreed to work with us. He was too busy earlier and now he has more time.
You will see his lectures soon. As you may know, he is one of the best Korean pro teachers and author of many Go books.
I will post more details soon

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