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Post #21 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:49 am 
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luigi wrote:
(Of course, we could just say that scoring in Kingo is territory plus kings, which is probably more practical and gets rid of the implicit group tax. I kind of wanted to keep things simple at first, but I will change it if people think it's better this way. Also, as I said, my personal preference is to have integer komi and solve ties with the button.)

I've finally decided to make this change. Having to fill territories with kings seems impractical.

I've edited my original post to reflect this.

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Post #22 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:36 am 
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luigi wrote:
luigi wrote:
(Of course, we could just say that scoring in Kingo is territory plus kings, which is probably more practical and gets rid of the implicit group tax. I kind of wanted to keep things simple at first, but I will change it if people think it's better this way. Also, as I said, my personal preference is to have integer komi and solve ties with the button.)

I've finally decided to make this change. Having to fill territories with kings seems impractical.

I've edited my original post to reflect this.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . B O . . O B .
$$ | B B O . . O B .
$$ | . B O O O O B .
$$ | B B X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


How many points for black in this corner? :)

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Post #23 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:01 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . B O . . O B .
$$ | B B O . . O B .
$$ | . B O O O O B .
$$ | B B X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


How many points for black in this corner? :)

20 points, it seems. Black's first three plays in White's eyespace need to be pawns.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #24 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:10 am 
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I actually prefer the original rules for this variant. I don't think the group tax is onerous, and it seems natural because of situations like Herman's example where players are forced to capture groups that would normally be removed as dead.


This post by jeromie was liked by 2 people: luigi, Schachus
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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #25 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:17 am 
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Also, I think it makes an interesting strategic tradeoff: do I play for early secure territory so I can start playing kings or build a large moyo in the hope I can end up with fewer groups?

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Post #26 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:44 am 
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luigi wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . B O . . O B .
$$ | B B O . . O B .
$$ | . B O O O O B .
$$ | B B X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


How many points for black in this corner? :)

20 points, it seems. Black's first three plays in White's eyespace need to be pawns.


Yes, so you need to be careful in specifying what is or isn't territory.

How about this situation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . B O O a O B .
$$ | B B O . O B B .
$$ | . B O O X X . .
$$ | B B X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


In isolation, when there are no ko-threats, black can play a king at ''a''. But if there are unremovable ko-threats, he can't.

Perhaps it should required to capture all dead stones, and only after that we count territory?

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #27 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:50 am 
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I also like the old rules, they are nice and clear. Assinging Points to certain stones on the board doesnt seem to fit with territory scoring. I am with Jeromie on this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #28 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:04 am 
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jeromie, HermanHiddema, Schachus, thanks for your feedback. Those are good points indeed.

Even in regular Go, it's not so easy for me to choose between stone scoring and area scoring. I currently prefer area scoring, but not by much. As a game designer, I usually strive for short rules and conceptual simplicity.

In Kingo, it's dawning on me that the case against counting territories is stronger than in Go. The implicit group tax probably doesn't stand out as much given that there are situations of the type Herman points out where some territory points other than the two eyes have to be excluded from counting as well.

I'm now inclined to revert to the original rules, but I'll wait a couple of days in case someone wants to share their perspective as well.

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Post #29 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:22 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Perhaps it should required to capture all dead stones, and only after that we count territory?

I'd never consider defining dead groups in the rules, so the idea would be to let players decide which groups should be removed at the end of the game. The owner of a dead group will never agree with having it directly removed if they know that capturing it requires the opponent to place some pawns in what would otherwise be territory for them.

Of course, a territory of a player's color would be strictly defined as a set of connected points with no adjacencies to pieces of the opposite color, regardless of ko situations and such.

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #30 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:12 am 
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I think it would make sense to move this thread to the "Other versions of turn-based games" forum. There are many posts about Go variants there and the overwhelming majority of posts here are about "actual Go".

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 Post subject: Re: Kingo
Post #31 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:09 am 
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OK, I've reverted to the original scoring: kings only, no territories.

Also, I've written up an entry for Kingo on Sensei's Library.

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