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 Post subject: Re: Fair komi without ties
Post #81 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:05 pm 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
If you implement the button as the first pass and allow two consecutive passes to end play, you add a possible pass fight to a ko fight, a needless complication.

Well, my idea was to make the button neither a pass nor a play. Anyway, do you have an example of such a pass fight?

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 Post subject: Re: Fair komi without ties
Post #82 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:10 pm 
Judan

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luigi wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
If you implement the button as the first pass and allow two consecutive passes to end play, you add a possible pass fight to a ko fight, a needless complication.

Well, my idea was to make the button neither a pass nor a play.

How so? What difference would that make? How would it work?

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 Post subject: Re: Fair komi without ties
Post #83 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:54 am 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
luigi wrote:
Well, my idea was to make the button neither a pass nor a play.

How so? What difference would that make? How would it work?

The idea is to consider Button Go a way to fine-tune komi under area scoring rather than a compromise between area and territory scoring. This seems especially relevant now that AlphaGo says that the best komi value under area scoring (7.5) gives Black a sizeable advantage (55% win rate).

Because of this, komi 7 with button seems the best alternative, but ideally the adoption of this solution should be made in a way that optimal on-board scores (prior to adding komi and button) don't change. If the button lifts ko and superko bans, some positions yield a different on-board score than regular area scoring, so I'm arguing that maybe it shouldn't have that ability in order for the game to remain one and the same at its core, and in order for "komi 7 plus button" to be considered a legitimate komi for area scoring rather than a Go variant.

That's what I mean by the button not being a play: it's not taken into account by positional superko, whose concern is the board position, i.e. plays. But, of course, it's still not a pass: passing after the opponent takes the button doesn't end the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Fair komi without ties
Post #84 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:03 am 
Judan

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luigi wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
luigi wrote:
Well, my idea was to make the button neither a pass nor a play.

How so? What difference would that make? How would it work?

That's what I mean by the button not being a play: it's not taken into account by positional superko, whose concern is the board position, i.e. plays. But, of course, it's still not a pass: passing after the opponent takes the button doesn't end the game.


Perhaps one way of implementing that as a variant of AGA rules without a physical button is this way:

    1) use territory counting;
    2) play stops after two consecutive passes after the first pass;
    3) the player making the first pass does not hand over a pass stone;
    4) if the opponent of the player who made the first pass makes the last pass, she does not hand over a pass stone for that pass, either;
    5) use 6.5 komi (presently).

With no physical button, just treat the first pass as the button. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fair komi without ties
Post #85 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:53 am 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
Perhaps one way of implementing that as a variant of AGA rules without a physical button is this way:

    1) use territory counting;
    2) play stops after two consecutive passes after the first pass;
    3) the player making the first pass does not hand over a pass stone;
    4) if the opponent of the player who made the first pass makes the last pass, she does not hand over a pass stone for that pass, either;
    5) use 6.5 komi (presently).

With no physical button, just treat the first pass as the button. :)

It seems to add up, although I'll have to think more about it to get a clear understanding of why.

Meanwhile, I managed to understand this:
Bill Spight wrote:
If you implement the button as the first pass and allow two consecutive passes to end play, you add a possible pass fight to a ko fight, a needless complication.

:)

Together with the issue of one-sided dame (discussed before), this seems a strong argument against implementing the button as the first pass and allowing two consecutive passes to end play.

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