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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #41 Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:51 am 
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If the players are tied by wins after the round robin, two more games will be played. The pairing will be made by ordering the players and the two last play a game ad the winner plays against the first. The ordering will be made by points added from player's games. If points are tied, the tied players are ordered by the time of their free round, a later free round being better.

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #42 Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:52 pm 
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Waylon wrote:
Matti wrote:
How do you compare handicap and komi, for example 2 stones handicap vs. 20 points komi?

Results from pro games and bot games suggest that the advantage for the first move is close to 7 points. 2 handicap stones should be approximately equal to 21 points of komi.

The sorted list of possible handicaps for the auction is probably not the game-theoretic truth. I don't see this as a major problem, as long as the list is created by reasonably competent players and made public in the tournament conditions, to which all participants agree.

I think that Waylon's auction idea is the most interesting. After a little fooling around with katago, it seems that the range of alternatives can be quite short. Simply declare that the player with the bye in game one will take black in game two. The auction is for how much komi black will give. Under Chinese rules black should be willing to give 9.5 but reluctant to give 11.5 points (37% winrate versus 28%). Under Japanese rules the choices would be a little more nuanced with 10.5 also in the mix.

However, the idea of drawing straws is also an attractive way to cut to the chase. If we have a three way tie, split the prize money evenly but draw straws to choose which two players will complete in a single game for the trophy and the title of "Champion". The chances are the same for everyone at each stage and will not influence earlier play.

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #43 Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:31 pm 
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Matti wrote:
If the players are tied by wins after the round robin, two more games will be played. The pairing will be made by ordering the players and the two last play a game ad the winner plays against the first. The ordering will be made by points added from player's games. If points are tied, the tied players are ordered by the time of their free round, a later free round being better.


Well, as I said, I have not been following this discussion. I thought that if the tie-break games did not produce a clear winner, the point total of those three games would be used to break that tie. A three way tie is still possible that way, but unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #44 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:48 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Matti wrote:
If the players are tied by wins after the round robin, two more games will be played. The pairing will be made by ordering the players and the two last play a game ad the winner plays against the first. The ordering will be made by points added from player's games. If points are tied, the tied players are ordered by the time of their free round, a later free round being better.


Well, as I said, I have not been following this discussion. I thought that if the tie-break games did not produce a clear winner, the point total of those three games would be used to break that tie. A three way tie is still possible that way, but unlikely.

Not exactly. If the players are tied by wins after the three games they are ranked by sum of points and if that tied then by having the bye round later. Tww lowest ranked play a game and the winer play against the highest to decide the winner.


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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #45 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:57 am 
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ez4u wrote:
Waylon wrote:
Matti wrote:
How do you compare handicap and komi, for example 2 stones handicap vs. 20 points komi?

Results from pro games and bot games suggest that the advantage for the first move is close to 7 points. 2 handicap stones should be approximately equal to 21 points of komi.

The sorted list of possible handicaps for the auction is probably not the game-theoretic truth. I don't see this as a major problem, as long as the list is created by reasonably competent players and made public in the tournament conditions, to which all participants agree.

I think that Waylon's auction idea is the most interesting. After a little fooling around with katago, it seems that the range of alternatives can be quite short. Simply declare that the player with the bye in game one will take black in game two. The auction is for how much komi black will give. Under Chinese rules black should be willing to give 9.5 but reluctant to give 11.5 points (37% winrate versus 28%). Under Japanese rules the choices would be a little more nuanced with 10.5 also in the mix.

So one would draw lots for the order to make a bid.

There might be some ramifications like A would bid over B's 9.5 bid, but not C's 9.5 bid.

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #46 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:29 am 
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I like the thought being put into this, but I don’t like the idea of different komi against players of equal strength.

Trying to win a game of go by 20 points is a different skill, and requires different strategy, than trying to win by 0.5.

You could have a player that can beat everyone else by 0.5 points 99% of the time, but due to playing style, can’t beat the other players by 20 points even 1% of the time.

Go is not about winning by a lot of points, and I don’t like tie breakers that use that method. All tie breakers suck, so it’s an option you could use. But I certainly wouldn’t call it “ultimate”.

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 Post subject: Re: Ultimate tie break for three way tie
Post #47 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:18 am 
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Note that the ultimate or final tie break consist of two games played normally. The scores in the previous phase are used to do the pairing in case the round robin is tied.

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