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 Post subject: evergo
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm 
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in this go variant,
its all the same standard rules, for capturing and such, but in this variant you can play more than one stone per turn. the downside? you get minus points for each additional stone.
-3 for 2 stones, -6 for 3 stones, -10 for 4 stones, -15 for 5 stones etc.
you only get penalized in that fashion for playing more than one stone per turn.
you pass your turn when your done playing.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:06 pm 
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phillip1882 wrote:
in this go variant,
its all the same standard rules, for capturing and such, but in this variant you can play more than one stone per turn. the downside? you get minus points for each additional stone.
-3 for 2 stones, -6 for 3 stones, -10 for 4 stones, -15 for 5 stones etc.
you only get penalized in that fashion for playing more than one stone per turn.
you pass your turn when your done playing.


When you play multiple stones, do you play all of the stones at the same time? If so, you can capture a group with two one point eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #3 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:39 pm 
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Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
I like it, but my goodness that downside seems really small. If it's like regular go that the average opening move is 14 points, then I should play 12 moves per move, or until they get noticeably too small?
So black's best first move looks something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play, B down 90 points.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems a little too crazy for me. I'd much prefer a higher point cost, like 15 for the first, 30 for the second, 45 for the third, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #4 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:11 pm 
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How about exponential cost? 1 for 1 stone, 3 for 2 stones, 7 for 3 stones, 15 for 4 stones, etc?

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:42 am 
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yeah exponential would probably be better.

two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:12 am 
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phillip1882 wrote:
yeah exponential would probably be better.

two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.


If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.:)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
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Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #7 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:07 am 
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Quote:
If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.


Um I'm not sure what you mean.
You can form two eyes with your multiple placed stones.
And many groups.
As long as you accept the negative points for the additional moves.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #8 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:57 pm 
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phillip1882 wrote:
Quote:
If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.


Um I'm not sure what you mean.
You can form two eyes with your multiple placed stones.
And many groups.
As long as you accept the negative points for the additional moves.


What I had in mind was captures. In regular go you can only play a stone that has no liberty if it simultaneously captures a stone of the opponent's. In evergo, if you can have two unconnected stones that each has no liberty, then you can capture a group with two eyes. So exactly how do you capture in evergo?

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

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Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #9 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:21 pm 
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If penalties go like 10-20-40 then you may also allow capture of two eyes. Then larger groups would need more eyes, depending on size. :)

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Post #10 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:39 am 
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Hi Phillip,
Quote:
When you play multiple stones, do you play all of the stones at the same time? If so, you can capture a group with two one point eyes.
Quote:
two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.
...Um I'm not sure what you mean.
Re: Bill's question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Legal in normal Go
$$| . . . . . . . . |
$$| O O O . . O O O |
$$| X X O . . O X X |
$$| . X O . . O X 1 |
$$+------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

Is this legal in everGo ? :w1: and :w1: simultaneously
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W -3 penalty for ( :w1: + :w1: )
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| 1 X 1 X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b6:, ( :white: -3 )
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| . . . . O . . . . .
$$| O . O . O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]


This post by EdLee was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #11 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:37 am 
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if at any point your stones have no liberties, and they aren't capturing, then the move is illegal.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here because a1 you have no liberties and aren't capturing, this move is illegal. same with c1.
here's an example where you could capture.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| X . . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here you can't play a2 as your first move, nor e1 followed by e2, you could however play b1, then
play a2, then c1, and now play e1 followed by e2, capturing the group.


This post by phillip1882 was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #12 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:52 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| X X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| . . . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here this group cant be captured, for the same reason as your first example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| X . O X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

also note this group cant be captured.
because b1 is no longer an option.

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Post #13 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:45 pm 
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So: when you play multiple stones on your turn, you play them not simultaneously, but consecutively, and each move must be legal in normal Go.

Certain living shapes in normal Go are now killable...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Killable
$$| . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O . .
$$| X X X X X O . .
$$| . . . . X O . .
$$+----------------[/go]
( Isn't there a Sensei page that lists all the mininal living shapes? )
...except an exponential penalty table will also kill you:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . .
$$| X X X X . .
$$| . X . X . .
$$+------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :black: to play
$$|--------
$$| . . . |
$$| . . . |
$$| . . . |
$$+--------[/go]
This forum's diagram tools don't support the numbering for everGo...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$|--------
$$| 1 . 3 |
$$| . 5 . |
$$| 7 . 9 |
$$+--------[/go]
:black: : 4 - ( 5 x :black: exponential penalty )

The precise penalty table affects the game tremendously.

e.g. A living shape by double ko in normal Go is killable in everGo ( only need 2 moves in one turn to fill in one ko; but depends on the penalty vs. profit from the kill. )

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 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #14 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:13 pm 
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yeah the penalty needs to be a tight balance,
severe enough to discourage multiple usage, but not so severe that its never to your advantage.
after thinking about it, i think
2 move 7, 3 move 15, 4 move 31, etc would be fair.
edit:
slightly better i think would be
2 move 7, 3 move 15 4 move 30, 5 move 60, 6 move 120 etc.

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