It is currently Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:14 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 94 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #61 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:42 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
The Spight rules are not Japanese rules. An encore is not necessary to resolve any dispute about life and death. :b3: can pass.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]


OK Bill, let's forget about the way to reach the position above.

In area counting the situation is clear. It follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X 1 O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | 3 . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
:w2: pass
:w4: pass

and if now black opens a dispute concerning black stone marked then the game continues by
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O 5 |
$$ | X X O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O 7 |
$$ | X . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
:b6: pass


The problem appears only with territory counting when black decides to disputes the status of the black stone marked

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]

Let's consider ONLY the Spight rules with territory counting.
What will be the result of the game (komi = 0.5)? Who will win?
Should white continue the game under "normal" play?
If white passes and black passes also then, how is handled the dispute concerning the status of the black marked stone?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #62 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:19 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
The Spight rules are not Japanese rules. An encore is not necessary to resolve any dispute about life and death. :b3: can pass.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]


OK Bill, let's forget about the way to reach the position above.

In area counting the situation is clear. It follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X 1 O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | 3 . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
:w2: pass
:w4: pass

and if now black opens a dispute concerning black stone marked then the game continues by
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O 5 |
$$ | X X O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O 7 |
$$ | X . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
:b6: pass


The problem appears only with territory counting when black decides to disputes the status of the black stone marked


Don't confuse Japanese scoring with territory scoring. Modern Japanese scoring is one form of territory scoring.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]

Let's consider ONLY the Spight rules with territory counting.
What will be the result of the game (komi = 0.5)? Who will win?
Should white continue the game under "normal" play?
If white passes and black passes also then, how is handled the dispute concerning the status of the black marked stone?


That's not the most interesting question for Spight rules. Any dispute about the status of the marked stone is trivial.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #63 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:48 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 186
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 25
Gaining points on one-sided dame (thus some score difference) is known property of the approach of appending an area-like dispute phase after the territory-based main phase. This is not specific to a particular ruleset.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #64 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:23 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
jann wrote:
Gaining points on one-sided dame (thus some score difference) is known property of the approach of appending an area-like dispute phase after the territory-based main phase. This is not specific to a particular ruleset.


BTW Jann, do you know how this problem is resolved in J89 rules ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]

We can easily see the following hypothtetical play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O 1 |
$$ | X 2 O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]

black can recognize that the black marked stone is captured but she may argue she has created another living stone at :b2: which was not there at the beginning of the hypothetical play. As a consequence you cannot declare the marked stone dead! Surely black attitude is quite unfair but what is the answer of the rule?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #65 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:38 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 186
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 25
B can play one-sided dame regardless of the right side, so that stone was not "enabled" by the right side capture. J89 has no problem here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #66 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:34 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
jann wrote:
B can play one-sided dame regardless of the right side, so that stone was not "enabled" by the right side capture. J89 has no problem here.

Thank you Jann, I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule but is not quite clear. Can the rule force black to play the one-side dames before the end of the game?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #67 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:01 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 186
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 25
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule

No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #68 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:10 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule

No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.


Now I understand. Thank you again Jann.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #69 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule

No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.


As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out. :)

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1. :)

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #70 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:24 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule

No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.


As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out. :)

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1. :)

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.


BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #71 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:20 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out. :)

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1. :)

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.


BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.


This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #72 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:32 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out. :)

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1. :)

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.


BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.


This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018


OK Bill, but how I have to proceed to draw all the articles and build a complete picture of the rule?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #73 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:15 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out. :)

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1. :)

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.


BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.


This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018


Gérard TAILLE wrote:
OK Bill, but how I have to proceed to draw all the articles and build a complete picture of the rule?


Here is the complete text:

Bill Spight wrote:
I have proposed these two rules which address the questions of endless repetition and stopping play at the end of the game.

* A board play may not repeat a previous whole board position unless a pass has intervened since its last occurrence.

* Play stops when the same player passes a second time in the same board position.

With area scoring play ends when play stops. With territory scoring play stops twice. After the first stop there is an encore in which a pass costs one point and each player makes the same number of plays (considering a pass a play). Also, passes before the encore do not count for stopping play in the encore. After the second stop play ends if each player has made the same number of plays. If not, the second player in the encore makes an obligatory pass and play ends.

What's the problem?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #74 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:45 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
What's the problem?

in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:

Article 8. Territory
After all dead stones, if any, have been removed, empty points that are surrounded by stones of the same player are called eye points, and any empty points that are not eye points are called neutral points. All stones that surround the same eye points belong to the same group. A group is called a seki group if it is adjacent to a neutral point, or if one or more of its stones is in atari. Eye points that are surrounded by a group that is not a seki group are territory. Territory belongs to the player whose stones surround it.

Comment: The current definition is unclear. First, it distinguishes eye points from neutral points, and later distinguishes some eye points from territory in an unclear way, talking about seki stones possessing neutral points that they are not connected to. I replace the idea of seki stones with that of a seki group, and include the idea of atari, to cover double ko seki and other strange seki.

Trying to clarify what is a territory seemed to me a good idea, wasn't it?

What about the repetition and stopping play ?
For chinese rules it doesn't change really the result of the game, at least on a 19x19 board. Your proposal allows to remove anomalies known as beast positions on small board and it for me a good point.
For japonese rule it is quite different due to the "encore". As a consequence even common seki may give a different result and, as you mentionned yourself several time, the rule appears really different.
Example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 1 point in japonese rule and 2 points in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | . O . X O . X O . . . . .
$$ | O O O X X X X O . .
$$ | X X X O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]

Just for fun how will be handled the following position ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]

With your rule white will OC take the 11x11 black stones, but the strange point here is that white can choose to take the black stones either in normal play or in an encore play. Because white will play first it seems it is better for white to choose the encore play with the opportunity to gain one more point if white can play the last dame.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #75 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
What's the problem?

in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:


That's the wrong link, as I just told you. :shock:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #76 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:02 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
What's the problem?

in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:


That's the wrong link, as I just told you. :shock:


Yes Bill I know

Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #77 Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:27 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
What's the problem?

in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:


That's the wrong link, as I just told you. :shock:


Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Yes Bill I know

Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)


Basically, Spight rules with territory scoring implement Berlekamp's No Pass Go with Prisoner Return, with a superko rule. Except for the superko rule, it is consistent with the oldest extant game records for which the scores are known, which are territory scores with a group tax. The main difference with modern Japanese scoring is the group tax. Modern Japanese scoring of sekis is also quirky. The SpightJapaneseStyle rules are irrelevant. Why do you keep referring to them?

How do you see the shown mannenko position remaining on the board, so that White gets 1 net point in the encore?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #78 Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:48 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)


Basically, Spight rules with territory scoring implement Berlekamp's No Pass Go with Prisoner Return, with a superko rule. Except for the superko rule, it is consistent with the oldest extant game records for which the scores are known, which are territory scores with a group tax. The main difference with modern Japanese scoring is the group tax. Modern Japanese scoring of sekis is also quirky. The SpightJapaneseStyle rules are irrelevant. Why do you keep referring to them?


Yes Bill, I my last post I mentionned only "Spight rule" and not "japonese Spight rule" but may be I was not clear enough.

Bill Spight wrote:
How do you see the shown mannenko position remaining on the board, so that White gets 1 net point in the encore?

Because connecting the ko is a one-sided dame and with encore, any one-sided dame allows to gain one point. Am I wrong?

If it is true (?) then
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule 0, Spight rule +2
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X . . .
$$ | X . O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]

and similarly, assuming no ko fight (I mean no ko threat):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]

2 points difference looks significant and I guess strategy may change if these kind of seki occur.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #79 Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:02 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1202
Liked others: 51
Was liked: 192
Rank: KGS 5d
KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
This is a tangent from the main discussion, but I saw this diagram and couldn't resist.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


If White captured the block, Black could actually live inside. Do our rulesets account for this at all?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Moonlight life and go rules
Post #80 Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:23 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 515
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Shaddy wrote:
This is a tangent from the main discussion, but I saw this diagram and couldn't resist.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]


If White captured the block, Black could actually live inside. Do our rulesets account for this at all?


Yes Shaddy, your comment is exactly the issue handled by the subject "No result game without loop (in japonese rule)" beginning by the post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=265939#p265939

For the specific position above I think we are all agreeing black can live inside the corner. Under japonese rules that means that if the game ends without white making the capture then black stones and white stones are considered in seki. Because such result could not be acceptable for white, she has no choice but to take the black stones during normal play, and continue the game.
In the link I mentionned above you will find more difficult positions for which the japonese rule fails to give a clear result.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 94 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group