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What is the score under this seki situation?
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=16621
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Author:  gamesorry [ Sat May 11, 2019 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  What is the score under this seki situation?

One of my games on LittleGolem is in the final score counting stage: http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1966165

However, I think both snapshots are not the correct score. With Japanese rule, it seems white might need to capture the two stones and black needs to place one more in it, so white gets 3 pts for the seki group while black has 0 pt for the seki group, so the final score is W+0.5 ? What do you think?

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Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun May 12, 2019 5:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

gamesorry wrote:
One of my games on LittleGolem is in the final score counting stage: http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1966165

However, I think both snapshots are not the correct score.
Quote:

To get an accurate score under Japanese rules you need to fill all the dame, except necessary dame in seki.

Quote:
With Japanese rule, it seems white might need to capture the two stones and black needs to place one more in it, so white gets 3 pts for the seki group while black has 0 pt for the seki group, so the final score is W+0.5 ? What do you think?


Under Japanese rules you capture stones in hypothetical play after play has stopped only to determine whether they are dead or not. With actual play before play has stopped or after the game is resumed, captures are made as usual.

If there are dead stones inside regular territory, it is best to leave them alone if they do not need to be captured, because after play is over you can just remove without capturing them. If there are dead stones inside seki, since there is no territory, there is no penalty for actually capturing them before the end of play or in resumption, and dead stones cannot be removed from seki by hypothetical play, so it is best just to capture the stones before the end of play or to resume play and do so. IIUC, White should resume play and capture the stones, and both players should fill the dame before counting.

Author:  ez4u [ Sun May 12, 2019 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

Since there are no points in a seki under Japanese rules, White gains only two points by capturing the stones. So the game result will not change, B+. Filling the dame is unnecessary. It appears that the server has scored the boundaries correctly.

Author:  Tryss [ Sun May 12, 2019 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

@ez4u : white will capture the two black stones, but black then need to add a new stone inside, and white will capture this stone too.

Author:  ez4u [ Sun May 12, 2019 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

You are right! And I was careless, not noticing the one black point scored in the seki by the server. :oops: So if White captures the extra stones, does the server score it correctly? Under Japanese rules, players have to capture the extra stones in a seki AFAIK. If they do not, they do not count.

Author:  phillip1882 [ Tue May 14, 2019 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

the problem with japanese rules is how they count seki in my opinion. i would define a point as - if you surround an intersection, and it cant be taken from you, then its a point. here, white can clearly capture the two stones, thus they are dead and can be removed as captures in the end of the game. aga has good rules for handling a dispute. when you pass you give up a stone, and if there's a dispute on the board, the game is resumed and any stones left on the board after four passes are considered alive, and Chinese counting is then employed.

Author:  ez4u [ Tue May 14, 2019 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

phillip1882 wrote:
the problem with japanese rules is how they count seki in my opinion. i would define a point as - if you surround an intersection, and it cant be taken from you, then its a point. here, white can clearly capture the two stones, thus they are dead and can be removed as captures in the end of the game. aga has good rules for handling a dispute. when you pass you give up a stone, and if there's a dispute on the board, the game is resumed and any stones left on the board after four passes are considered alive, and Chinese counting is then employed.

I think this is not correct. You cannot remove stones in a seki at the end of a game under Japanese rules, unlike dead stones within a living group. Otherwise the seki would collapse. In order to get the points, White must go ahead and capture the stones, removing them from the board. If White does not do so, the stones are part of the seki and count as zero points. Amateurs in Japan make this kind of mistake often in over-the-board play.

Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue May 14, 2019 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

The problem with both Japanese and Chines rules is that they count points needed to live. Bring back the group tax! :grumpy:

Author:  gamesorry [ Sun May 19, 2019 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is the score under this seki situation?

Thanks for the confirmation, we managed to get to the W+0.5 score in the end (luckily each group ended up with one eye so the extra points cancelled out) :)

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