It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:03 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: evergo
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
in this go variant,
its all the same standard rules, for capturing and such, but in this variant you can play more than one stone per turn. the downside? you get minus points for each additional stone.
-3 for 2 stones, -6 for 3 stones, -10 for 4 stones, -15 for 5 stones etc.
you only get penalized in that fashion for playing more than one stone per turn.
you pass your turn when your done playing.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:06 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
phillip1882 wrote:
in this go variant,
its all the same standard rules, for capturing and such, but in this variant you can play more than one stone per turn. the downside? you get minus points for each additional stone.
-3 for 2 stones, -6 for 3 stones, -10 for 4 stones, -15 for 5 stones etc.
you only get penalized in that fashion for playing more than one stone per turn.
you pass your turn when your done playing.


When you play multiple stones, do you play all of the stones at the same time? If so, you can capture a group with two one point eyes.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #3 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:39 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 131
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 18
Rank: AGA 4 dan
Universal go server handle: telegraphgo
I like it, but my goodness that downside seems really small. If it's like regular go that the average opening move is 14 points, then I should play 12 moves per move, or until they get noticeably too small?
So black's best first move looks something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play, B down 90 points.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems a little too crazy for me. I'd much prefer a higher point cost, like 15 for the first, 30 for the second, 45 for the third, etc.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #4 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:11 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
How about exponential cost? 1 for 1 stone, 3 for 2 stones, 7 for 3 stones, 15 for 4 stones, etc?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:42 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
yeah exponential would probably be better.

two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #6 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:12 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
phillip1882 wrote:
yeah exponential would probably be better.

two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.


If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.:)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #7 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:07 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
Quote:
If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.


Um I'm not sure what you mean.
You can form two eyes with your multiple placed stones.
And many groups.
As long as you accept the negative points for the additional moves.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #8 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:57 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
phillip1882 wrote:
Quote:
If two eyes are alive, then I guess that you can have only one string of stones with no liberty when you have placed all your stones.


Um I'm not sure what you mean.
You can form two eyes with your multiple placed stones.
And many groups.
As long as you accept the negative points for the additional moves.


What I had in mind was captures. In regular go you can only play a stone that has no liberty if it simultaneously captures a stone of the opponent's. In evergo, if you can have two unconnected stones that each has no liberty, then you can capture a group with two eyes. So exactly how do you capture in evergo?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #9 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:21 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 445
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 37
If penalties go like 10-20-40 then you may also allow capture of two eyes. Then larger groups would need more eyes, depending on size. :)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #10 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:39 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Phillip,
Quote:
When you play multiple stones, do you play all of the stones at the same time? If so, you can capture a group with two one point eyes.
Quote:
two eyes are still considered alive, but yes you play multiple moves on the same turn.
...Um I'm not sure what you mean.
Re: Bill's question:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Legal in normal Go
$$| . . . . . . . . |
$$| O O O . . O O O |
$$| X X O . . O X X |
$$| . X O . . O X 1 |
$$+------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

Is this legal in everGo ? :w1: and :w1: simultaneously
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W -3 penalty for ( :w1: + :w1: )
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| 1 X 1 X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b6:, ( :white: -3 )
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| . . . . O . . . . .
$$| O . O . O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]


This post by EdLee was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #11 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:37 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
if at any point your stones have no liberties, and they aren't capturing, then the move is illegal.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O . . . . .
$$| X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here because a1 you have no liberties and aren't capturing, this move is illegal. same with c1.
here's an example where you could capture.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| X . . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here you can't play a2 as your first move, nor e1 followed by e2, you could however play b1, then
play a2, then c1, and now play e1 followed by e2, capturing the group.


This post by phillip1882 was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #12 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:52 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| X X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| . . . X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

here this group cant be captured, for the same reason as your first example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O O . . .
$$| X X X X X X O . . . . .
$$| . X X X . X O . . . . .
$$| X . O X . X O . . . . .
$$+--------------------[/go]

also note this group cant be captured.
because b1 is no longer an option.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #13 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:45 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
So: when you play multiple stones on your turn, you play them not simultaneously, but consecutively, and each move must be legal in normal Go.

Certain living shapes in normal Go are now killable...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Killable
$$| . . . . . . . .
$$| O O O O O O . .
$$| X X X X X O . .
$$| . . . . X O . .
$$+----------------[/go]
( Isn't there a Sensei page that lists all the mininal living shapes? )
...except an exponential penalty table will also kill you:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . .
$$| X X X X . .
$$| . X . X . .
$$+------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :black: to play
$$|--------
$$| . . . |
$$| . . . |
$$| . . . |
$$+--------[/go]
This forum's diagram tools don't support the numbering for everGo...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$|--------
$$| 1 . 3 |
$$| . 5 . |
$$| 7 . 9 |
$$+--------[/go]
:black: : 4 - ( 5 x :black: exponential penalty )

The precise penalty table affects the game tremendously.

e.g. A living shape by double ko in normal Go is killable in everGo ( only need 2 moves in one turn to fill in one ko; but depends on the penalty vs. profit from the kill. )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: evergo
Post #14 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:13 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 319
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 39
Rank: 6k
GD Posts: 25
OGS: phillip1882
yeah the penalty needs to be a tight balance,
severe enough to discourage multiple usage, but not so severe that its never to your advantage.
after thinking about it, i think
2 move 7, 3 move 15, 4 move 31, etc would be fair.
edit:
slightly better i think would be
2 move 7, 3 move 15 4 move 30, 5 move 60, 6 move 120 etc.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group