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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #61 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:23 pm 
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Unrealistic is such a nicer word than unreal:) The positions may be contrieved but so are many problems, such as H120 with its unrealistic hane-seki.

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Post #62 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:38 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra, when you introduce a tournament-rules-related issue, then do not blame discussion for also proceeding with tournament rules.

Dear Robert,

Google Translate will assist you to search for "tournament" in the Japanese => English translation of the Nihon Kiin 1989 ruleset. You will be unable to find any match, as I stated before.

A game of Go -- according to the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules -- starts with Black's first move and ends with the confirmation of the result by both players, or with their both loss.
As far as I understand the text, nothing outside this period / issue is regulated by that Rules.

Not even the time-keeping is mentioned.

I am afraid that you will be unable to find many followers who are willing to confirm that a single game of Go is a "tournament".

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #63 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:46 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
... such as H120 with its unrealistic hane-seki.

If the starting position of Inoue Dôsetsu Inseki's masterpiece were realistic, every Go AI could solve that problem with ease. And it would be impossible that an amateur could beat the specialised AI starting from a tiny variation of the main line about 100 moves later.

Just as it would be pointless to train every AI on this problem, it would be pointless to take the needs of a few Western rule freaks into account when developing a set of Go rules.

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Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #64 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:50 pm 
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In this context, I have not called a single game a tounament. (I did, however, play in subtournaments comprising one game.)

Applicability to all positions is a necessity. Studying eccentric positions is a joy.


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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #65 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:53 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In this context, I have not called a single game a tounament. (I did, however, play in subtournaments comprising one game.)

Have you still not got it?

The Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules are about ONE game of Go only!

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #66 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:57 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In this context, I have not called a single game a tounament. (I did, however, play in subtournaments comprising one game.)

Applicability to all positions is a necessity. Studying eccentric positions is a joy.

Western rule freaks ... :clap: :clap: :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #67 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 2:02 pm 
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I use verbal rules in my own games and so do most other players, I suppose.
So the ambiguity of the definition of life and death in the official 1989 rules has never affected any of my games.

But it cannot be denied that verbal rules don't fully match the official rules.

These positions are indeed unrealistic. But that is besides the point.
I think it's good that such anomalies are pointed out and potential fixes in the offical rules are explored, even though it's unlikely to affect my games.

I don't believe that rules specialists aim to use their special knowledge to win tournament games with some obscure exploit of a rule anomaly.

@Cassandra
These topics are discussed in the "Go Rules" subforum, which is a natural place for rules enthousiasts to discuss these matters.
Why do you feel the need to repeatedly insult them here by calling them "rule freaks"?


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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #68 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:27 pm 
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gennan wrote:
I use verbal rules in my own games and so do most other players, I suppose.
So the ambiguity of the definition of life and death in the official 1989 rules has never affected any of my games.


Of course it has :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c F6 is alive
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | X . X X X O . O . |
$$ | X X . . X O . . . |
$$ | O O X X . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X O O X X O |
$$ | . O X X X X X . X |
$$ | . O X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . |
$$ ---------------------[/go]


Here, the F6 black stone has no eye, is not in seki, and can obviously be captured. However it is alive. And it is very important, under japanese rules, that Black doesn't have to capture the two white stones in order to prove it, because he would loose one point.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #69 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:05 pm 
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gennan wrote:
These positions are indeed unrealistic. ...
I think it's good that such anomalies are pointed out and potential fixes in the offical rules are explored, ...

Do you really assume that discussions like that here, or the pretended "anomalies" found by some Western rule freaks, get an official hearing in East-Asia?

These "anomalies" exist in an artificially created surrounding only.

You will never ever encounter these in the realm of real life for which the official rules were written. Why should anyone see a need for action?
Just because a few people in the West play plaintiff and judge in one person?
Have you ever heard of a rules dispute in professional Japanese Go since 1989?

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #70 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:34 am 
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There have been rules disputes in professional Japanese Go since 1989. In particular, a consequence is that alternate filling of dame has been used more. You need not cite anomalies to have relevant rules implications in EACH game.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #71 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:38 am 
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Do you like quite strange sequence ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black plays and avoids losing all the coner
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X . . X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X . . X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black plays and avoid to lose all the coner
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X 1 5 X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X 3 2 X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X 4 O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X 6 O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
:b7: at :w2:

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #72 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:48 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
There have been rules disputes in professional Japanese Go since 1989. In particular, a consequence is that alternate filling of dame has been used more. You need not cite anomalies to have relevant rules implications in EACH game.

Do you want to say that a rules "dispute" arose just because both players did not follow the binding ones?

Or one player was mindedly absent before saying "I pass"?

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #73 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:05 am 
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Unfortunately, I have forgotten the details and would need to dig more deeply in my files than I have time ATM.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #74 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:38 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Unfortunately, I have forgotten the details and would need to dig more deeply in my files than I have time ATM.

So let us assume that the supposed "dispute" could be resolved within the ruleset in force.

Otherwise, there would have been a "Rev. 1", either for the rules, or for the commentaries. But there is none.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #75 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:50 pm 
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Japanese rules tradition went from pre-1949 (or possibly earlier) "leave dame etc. unplayed by all means" via "fix" J1949 by J1989 to noticing what J1989 actually means so "play the dame to guarantee territory". A less dubious process would have been to maintain professional attitude: learn from one's mistake, admit that the J1989 dame definition was a conceptual mistake with originally unintended consequences and overcome the mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #76 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:57 pm 
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Sorry, no further discussion of disputes you suspect, as long as you are unable to bring along qualified details.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #77 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:58 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Do you like quite strange sequence ?


Nice !

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #78 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:45 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Thank you for the link Bill. It allows me to give you a more convincing position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X . |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X |
$$ | . X X X X X X X X a X X X X X X X X . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


If white stones are dead then the black score is (17 * 17 * 2) + 5 = 583 points
Assuming now that 582 black stones have been captured, and assuming a komi 0.5, then the result is a black win by 0.5 points.
That means that black must avoid to capture at "a" because she will loose one point and the game (white will simply pass without trying to live)
Both players agree to stop the game and now the confirmation phase begin. The problem is now the following : nobody knows the god sequence saying if white stones are really dead under hypothetical play. The result of the game is simply unkonwn because the humans are not strong enough! BTW I doubt the current computers are able to give us the correct result.


I don't want to make any excuses for the "Japanese go rules".
Because it randomly modified the rules of the Tang and Song Dynasties,
Under Tang song rules, the number of moves of black and white sides should be equal, without "pass".

Let's look:
Black's moves: 582(prisoners) + 17*4(on board + "a") = 650
White's moves: 17*17=289

And, according to ancient Chinese Weiqi rules, basic liberties which make groups alive forever are not territory.
If one party can not put down stones on the board, 'pass' is prohibitted. 'overflow', then 'overflow of two parties'. See my articles.
overflow: hand over 1 stone to your opponent directly From above the board. It's like water overflowing from a bottle.


Special case: group/stone(s) which only 1 liberty will alive on the board.
If you killed these group/stone(s), you will lost more.
Attachment:
gz5.png
gz5.png [ 114.87 KiB | Viewed 159 times ]


then(please see comments in sgf file):


In ancient Chinese philosophy, Alternating between Yin and Yang is called Tao. Chinese: 一阴一阳之谓道。


Attachments:
tang_song.sgf [2.99 KiB]
Downloaded 56 times

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Last edited by pgwq on Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #79 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:46 am 
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Why are people pretending that the Japanese Rules do not clearly handle these situations? The Japanese Rules are simple. Stones are only "alive stones" if they cannot be captured or, even if they can be, new stones can be placed that cannot be captured. Stones are "dead stones" if they are not "alive stones." The Japanese Rules place the burden on showing life. There is no burden to show death -- it is the default status of stones. All stones are dead if they are not alive. The Japanese Rules define numerous basic shapes as being alive or dead, none of which cover the situations here. If a player cannot prove that stones are alive (this was the given assumption in the original post), then the stones are dead stones.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
What is the problem. Nobody knows if black can live in the upper left corner (after white makes the capture) and more over nobody knows if black can live under hypothetical play!
Maybe we can conclude to a no result by ignorance (and not due to a explicit loop) ?
Well then clearly the black stones are dead stones according to the Japanese Rules. The Japanese Rules do not define the black shape as being a living shape and black cannot show in Life & Death confirmation that any new stones are stones that cannot be captured. Since Black cannot meet the burden of showing life, then the black stones are dead. Black can resume the game but that does not help Black here. There is no requirement for white to play to show that the black stones are dead.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
If white stones are dead then the black score is (17 * 17 * 2) + 5 = 583 points
Assuming now that 582 black stones have been captured, and assuming a komi 0.5, then the result is a black win by 0.5 points.
That means that black must avoid to capture at "a" because she will loose one point and the game (white will simply pass without trying to live)
Both players agree to stop the game and now the confirmation phase begin. The problem is now the following : nobody knows the god sequence saying if white stones are really dead under hypothetical play. The result of the game is simply unknown because the humans are not strong enough! BTW I doubt the current computers are able to give us the correct result.
Again, Black does not need to prove that the white stones are dead. The white stones are dead by definition.
----------
If there were a situation where the stones were defined as dead, but the player thought they they could live if their opponent's play were not perfect, then the player can resume the game. If it is too late for them to play anywhere to make life then it is too late.
----------
Also, I don't believe that a data scientist (a real one) would not be able to implement a determination of life or death status under the Japanese Rules using AI self-play. If the position cannot be shown to be 100% alive according to AI self-play, then the shape is dead.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #80 Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:59 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
For further mistakes in Japanese rulesets and their corrections, see

http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/j1989c.html

By the way, there seems to be several misunderstandings here. A misunderstanding of 'dame' at least, which leads to other misunderstandings.

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