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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #41 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:36 am 
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I'd love to know what pgwq thinks of Cassandra's opinion!

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #42 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 6:48 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Robert Jasiek:
"According to my (Western) understanding of the matter, rules are supposed to apply to each legal position and it is legal that players make strategic mistakes. Therefore, rules must apply very well to each legal position."

While I understand what you are trying to say, please cite properly! I have not written "According to my (Western) understanding of the matter". To say that what I have written was according to my (Western) understanding of the matter, you might write that [citation or indirect speech of my writing] was, in your opinion, according to my (Western) understanding of the matter.

You might have overlooked the "proper" citation of yours that started my posting ...

The text in quotation marks is my best guess of what you should have written.

Quote:
Quote:
Nihon Kiin:
"Our rules are supposed to apply to professional play under the responsibility of the Nihon Kiin and the Kansai Kiin. The players are supposed to operate these rules in the spitit of good sense and mutual trust."

In these rules, you will not find anything about "each legal position".

While tournament rules can be written specifically for a particular organisation, such as the Nihon Kiin, rules of play should be written for everybody (in this case, wishing to apply Japanese-style rules) because the game is for everybody.

The text in quotation marks is my best guess of the Nihon Kiin's intention of creating their 1989 Rules.

I am very sure that you already know that the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules are NO tournament rules. These do not mention anything about "tournaments".

Quote:
A central purpose of rules of play is to always specify what is legal play. Failing to do so is a major flaw of a ruleset. Especially one for tournament play.

I am very sure that you already know which tyes of moves are NOT allowed / forbidden by the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules. This implies that every other type of move is legal.

As I already stated above, these rules do NOT specify anything about "tournaments".

Quote:
Thereby, plain application of the rules of play always enables a spirit of good sense and mutual trust without any problem of having to interpret what the latter might mean other than application of the rules of play.

Again, this is YOUR opinion.

But it does not match the Nihon Kiin 1989 Rules.
These rules have it the other way round. "A spirit of good sense and mutual trust" is considered an absolutly necessary precondition for the desired application of the rules.

Nowhere is stated that easing that application was one of the aims for creating that ruleset.
Cassandra wrote:
ElomKW wrote:
What all your statements seem to to be implying is that the Japanese rules aren't supposed to be a proper ruleset per say but a gentlehominins agreement.

-- How is "proper ruleset" defined?

-- Who has made that definition?

-- Who is the target audience for the application of this definition?

-- Who decides whether this definition is binding?
Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
This game begins by two "smarties" moves. Do you conclude that the standard ruleset cannot apply to this game (without knowing if the following moves seem correct or not)?

Quite obviously, the matter gets more and more infantile.

So far, your examples had roughly as many empty points on the board as are filled in your newest one.
Run out of arguments???
Cassandra wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
there is no way to stop them from doing so.

A sportsmanship-like tournament rule prevents such collusion of creating an arbitrary result in the interest of, in particular, all other participants of the tournament.

Quite obviously, the matter gets more and more infantile.

If I remember correct, the matter so far was related to a ruleset for the GAME.
A regulation in the ruleset for a TOURNAMENT shall be able to do a job that a regulation in the ruleset for a GAME cannot???
Run out of arguments???


Go is a mathematical concept. It is possible to have an absolute fact. In the real world you can only ever approximate to a fact--that's why in rules of the game it makes sense for it to be flawless while it is impossible to determine with absolute certainty someone's intentions.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #43 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:30 am 
Judan

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Cassandra, when you introduce a tournament-rules-related issue, then do not blame discussion for also proceeding with tournament rules.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #44 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:42 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
This game begins by two "smarties" moves. Do you conclude that the standard ruleset cannot apply to this game (without knowing if the following moves seem correct or not)?

Quite obviously, the matter gets more and more infantile.

So far, your examples had roughly as many empty points on the board as are filled in your newest one.
Run out of arguments???


Cassandra, I am not arguing, because simply I still do not understand your point. Sorry for that.
What do you mean by saying that standard ruleset is not designed to solve ANY legal POSITION that is possible on the Go board?
IOW, how do you recognize that a position is relevant or not to the standard ruleset? It may be obvious for some positions but what about any other positions like Igo Hatsuyôron 120 and many others?

Be sure I will not try to convince you about the interest of studying irreal positions!
I just try to understand what you consider being a "real" (?) go positions, relevant to the standard ruleset. Nothing else.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #45 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:58 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:


Assume komi = 0.5
If the game ends in this position and if the 110 black stones in the upper left corner are considered dead then white wins by 0.5 point.
That means that if, in normal play, white takes effectively these 110 black stones then black is sure to win (because by taking the black stones white plays in her territory and looses one point).
As a consequence, in the position above white has no choice : white passes and the referee has to decide who is winning.
What is the problem. Nobody knows if black can live in the upper left corner (after white makes the capture) and more over nobody knows if black can live under hypothetical play!
Maybe we can conclude to a no result by ignorance (and not due to a explicit loop) ?


After the players pass, the game is over. Then we determine which stones are dead and remove those from the board (and the game will not be resumed afterwards!). Then the score will be determined.
In this case, black's stones in the upper left are obviously dead as is, so white does not have to capture them (not even in hypothetical play) and he wins by 0.5 point.
Where is there any problem? I fail to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #46 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:15 am 
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gennan, capturable does not equate death. Look at nakade, snapback and hane-seki.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #47 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:20 am 
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Indeed. I claim that these stones are obviously dead. Not because they are capturable, but because they are not in a seki and they don't have eyes. I suppose this can be statically evaluated by algorithms such as Benson's.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #48 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:16 am 
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The problem of this position is that such a claim must be verified and proved, and this is complex.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #49 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:32 am 
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How is it complex to determine the status of black's block of stones in this position? It looks extremely simple to me: no eyes, no seki, so it's dead. I think most 25k players would have no trouble to determine this in less than 30 seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #50 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:49 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
What do you mean by saying that standard ruleset is not designed to solve ANY legal POSITION that is possible on the Go board?

I assume we can agree that we are talking about (supposed; otherwise there would be no discussion) FINAL positions of the game (i.e. just before the final pass of both players), where your interest is to determine whether
a) any side has to invest another move (in order to win) and / or
b) a certain group of stones can be considered dead outright.

Quote:
IOW, how do you recognize that a position is relevant or not to the standard ruleset? It may be obvious for some positions but what about any other positions like Igo Hatsuyôron 120 and many others?

Positions during the ACTIVE game phase are no topic of this thread.

Quote:
Be sure I will not try to convince you about the interest of studying irreal positions!
I just try to understand what you consider being a "real" (?) go positions, relevant to the standard ruleset. Nothing else.

If your interest really is the study of IRREAL positions, my company on your journey ends here. Because then there is no connection whatsoever to the real world. And I like to apologise for having misunderstood your concern from the very beginning.

Would be your interest, however, the discussion of potential RULES BEASTS, it is my understanding that it must be possible to create the position in question in the play phase of a real game, i.e. by alternating moves of both players.

In order to keep the connection to the real world intact, several restrictions of the legal moves apply (no claim to completeness):
-- Do not pass (as long as legal moves are still available on the board that do not cost you points on purpose).
-- Do not fill your own eyes without any need (e.g. to subdivide a larger one into a two-eye-shape, to defend a critical cutting point)
-- If you have multiple options of creating a sure eye, choose the larger one.
-- Do not play a self-atari (unless you have to create a nakade shape, or play a throw-in etc.).
-- Do not sacrifice stones without need.

If you discuss RULES BEASTS that do not cover the entire board, it would be helpful to state that this is a principle representation to ease the discussion, to better highlight the relevant parts of it, etc.

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Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #51 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:03 am 
Judan

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gennan wrote:
How is it complex to determine the status of black's block of stones in this position? It looks extremely simple to me: no eyes, no seki, so it's dead.


Go back to the learning corner and do read my commentaries on J1989! Understand capturable-1 and capturable-2! Understand that J1989 does NOT (repeat: N O T) define life by two eyes.

Then play the invade at 3-3 to live game.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #52 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:08 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
In order to keep the connection to the real world intact, several restrictions of the legal moves apply [...]:
-- Do not pass (as long as legal moves are still available on the board that do not cost you points on purpose).
-- Do not fill your own eyes without any need (e.g. to subdivide a larger one into a two-eye-shape, to defend a critical cutting point)
-- If you have multiple options of creating a sure eye, choose the larger one.
-- Do not play a self-atari (unless you have to create a nakade shape, or play a throw-in etc.).


These do not distinguish "real world" from arcana.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #53 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:41 am 
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If even that simple final position requires a complex mathematical proof to correctly determine the winner, how is it possible that countless players around the world can score their (much more complicated) games with little effort. Are they all doing it wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #54 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:04 pm 
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I think I'm starting to understand the point of this hypothetical position.

Japanese rules 1989
Article 7. Life and death
1. Stones are said to be "alive" if they cannot be captured by the opponent, or if capturing them would enable a new stone to be played that the opponent could not capture. Stones which are not alive are said to be "dead."

So the point of this hypothetical position it to exploit the wording of the definition of life and death in article 7.1.

I apologize for the confusion. I guess that I have an informal version of Japanese rules in mind that does imply eyes or seki to live.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #55 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:37 pm 
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gennan wrote:
I think I'm starting to understand the point of this hypothetical position.

Japanese rules 1989
Article 7. Life and death
1. Stones are said to be "alive" if they cannot be captured by the opponent, or if capturing them would enable a new stone to be played that the opponent could not capture. Stones which are not alive are said to be "dead."

So the point of this hypothetical position it to exploit the wording of the definition of life and death in article 7.1.

I apologize for the confusion. I guess that I have an informal version of Japanese rules in mind that does imply eyes or seki to live.


Yes Gennan you have got the point.
Thank you to Robert for his help to explain the point.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #56 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:52 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
These do not distinguish "real world" from arcana.

Your personal opinion is completely irrelevant here.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #57 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:59 pm 
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Just for fun:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play and live
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X a O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Nobody knows but it may well happen that a black "stupid" move at "a" (self atari) is the key move to live!
Everybody can see that if white can himself play at "a" then it is far more difficult for black to live after the capture.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #58 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:10 pm 
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Quote:
Be sure I will not try to convince you about the interest of studying irreal positions!
I just try to understand what you consider being a "real" (?) go positions, relevant to the standard ruleset. Nothing else.

Just being back from walking my labrador ...

In addition to my posting above I would like to distinguish the positions in question (provided these are "real" ones), whether their creation can be considered to be realistic or not.

The position that is currently heavily discussed (no "real" one by the way; but let's put this aside for a moment) is unrealistic:

-- The building of White's dead blocks of stones would have stopped much earlier, latest when it was clear that these groups could not get a living shape.
-- Most important -- in the light of existing knowledge that a 11x10 block of stones in a corner is alive -- White would have had a wild bunch of opportunities to stop the completition of that curious 9x9 block of Black stones.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

However, this position is a good illustrative model for ruleset freaks who want to win a tournament game by their very special knowledge.

During hypothetical play, Black would fight like the devil to bring his 3-3-point invasion stone to life.

Being well aware of this, White -- in the real world -- would capture Black's block of stones.
However, Black would pass like the devil now. And win the game.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #59 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:16 pm 
Judan

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gennan wrote:
how is it possible that countless players around the world can score their (much more complicated) games with little effort. Are they all doing it wrong?


They do not apply these rules but likely implicitly use some verbal Japanese rules. Their scoring positions may have more strings and regions but would be much less complicated from a POV of practical status assessment than the difficult positions in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: No result game without loop (in japonese rule) ?
Post #60 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:21 pm 
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gennan wrote:
If even that simple final position requires a complex mathematical proof to correctly determine the winner, how is it possible that countless players around the world can score their (much more complicated) games with little effort. Are they all doing it wrong?

The answer is very simple:

These games are REAL AND REALISTIC.
During these games, both players perform as expected by the fathers of the rulesets. So they all are doing it right.

And the 1 rules beast per 100.000.000 games (if ever noticed) does not reach the surface. It is stopped by an early resignation.

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