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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #241 Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:06 am 
Lives in sente

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Here is a question on trditional japanese rule relating to unsettled position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C C X . X . |
$$ | C C C X X X X |
$$ | C C C X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

Let's consider the nine marked intersections in upper left corner. There is still room for putting a living white group right?
Your are allowed to configure these nine intersections as you want (white stones, black stones and empty intersections) but the result must be the following:
1) If it is black to play the all white stones can be unconditionnally killed
2) It it is white to play white can live unconditionnally

Assume the game stops in this unsettled situation and you use "traditionnal" japanese rule.
1) Can the expected result depends of the specific position chosen?
2) If not, what is for you the expected result?

Thank you for your answer because it is really unclear for me. Black territory? Seki? No result? Both player lose? other?

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #242 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:37 am 
Lives in sente
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"J89 – The Movie"

As we know today, one of the weaknesses of Japanese rules, if not the main one, is the handling of positions with three ko-shapes in status confirmation.
This report on the shooting at the time will therefore be limited to the relevant parts of the film.


First appearance

Three ko-shapes on the board have their first appearance in the szene
"Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2", "3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture)."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O . . X O . . . . . . . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | . Y X X X O . . . . . . . X O Q X X Y |
$$ | Y X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O Y . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 4 O 3 . X O . . . . . . . X O 6 O X . |
$$ | O X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X 5 |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 2 . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 2 X O . . . . . . . X O X 5 X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X O |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 4 . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | O 1 3 M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X P . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Conclusion of the first appearance.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | B P . . B O . . . . . . . X W . P B . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X W W B B B |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X W W B . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X W . W Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W W W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What was not shown in the film.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | B P . . B O . . . . . . . X @ . @ # . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X @ @ # # # |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X @ @ # . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X @ . @ # |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X @ @ @ @ |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Conclusion overall.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 4 O 3 6 X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | O X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . 5 2 |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, this modification would have been better received by the audience, utilising the lower RIGHT :razz: corner, instead of the lower left one.



Second appearance

Three ko-shapes on the board have their second appearance in the szene
"Life-and-Death Example 8: triple ko with an eye on one side"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X O . Q . Q Y . Y O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O Q Y X Y O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O Y . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O Y X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X O . O 2 O X 1 X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O X X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O X 3 X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X 5 X O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O X X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O . O X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 4 . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X W . W . W Z . Z O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X W W W W Z Z Z O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X W Z . Z O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X W W Z Z O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Conclusion of the second appearance.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X O . O X 5 X O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O O X X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O . O X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Again, utilising the lower RIGHT :razz: corner, instead of the lower left one, would have been better received by the audience.



Third appearance

Three ko-shapes on the board have their third appearance in the szene
"Life-and-Death Example 11: False Eye with Double Ko"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X Q . Q . O X . . . . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | . . X X Q O O O X . . . . X O Q X X Y |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O Y . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X O 1 O . O X . . . . X O 3 O X . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X . X O 5 O X . . . . X O X . X . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O X O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 4 6 7 M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X P . P . P X . . . . X W . P B . |
$$ | . . X X P P P P X . . . . X W W B B B |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X W W B . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X W . W Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W W W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Intermediate conclusion of the third appearance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X P . P . P X . . . . X @ . @ # . |
$$ | . . X X P P P P X . . . . X @ @ # # # |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X @ @ # . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X @ . @ # |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X @ @ @ @ |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Final conclusion of the third appearance.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X O 1 O 3 O X . . . . X O . O X 4 |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O X 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This change would have been much more dramatic. The bloodthirsty audience would have jumped from their seats with enthusiasm.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . O X 1 X 3 X O . . . . X O 2 O X . |
$$ | . . O O X X X X O . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . O O O O O O . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O 4 O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

And because it was so very exciting, the action would be repeated again with exchanged colours.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X W . W . W X . . . . X P . P Z . |
$$ | . . X X W W W W X . . . . X P P Z Z Z |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X P P Z . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X P . P Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X P P P P |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

However, a side effect hadn't been on the radar. The censors stepped in!
The very last moment of that alternative scene was considered being too cruel and too disturbing even for a die-hard fan.

Perhaps times have changed over the decades, so that nowadays you will find other countries where the authorities are no longer quite as strict.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X . X O 5 O X . . . . X O 3 O X . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O X . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O X O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . 4 |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

That's what the censors would let go of.
Obviously the censors were fans of the lower RIGHT :razz: corner too.



Fourth appearance

Three ko-shapes on the board have their fourth appearance in the szene
"Life-and-Death Example 16"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The censors again: "Too cruel and too disturbing even for a die-hard fan of such a scene."
So bloody that it was forbidden to publish even snapshots of it.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . P P . P . P X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | P X X P P P P X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X P X X . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The film location after the cleanup.

--------------------------------------------

A scene named "Collapse of the seki" that was not in the script was filmed as a replacement.

However, the censors once again: "Too cruel and too disturbing even for a die-hard fan of such a scene."
And again so bloody that it was forbidden to publish even snapshots of it.
It shared the fate of its predecessor and also fell under the table in the editing room.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O O . O . O B . B P . P X . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O O B B P P P P X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O B P . P X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O B B B P P X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O B . B P X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O B B O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Photos of the location were only allowed after the cleanup.

--------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . P P . P . P B . B P . P X . . . . . |
$$ | P X X P P P P B B P P P P X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X P B P . P X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O B B B P P X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O B . B P X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O B B O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Panorama view on the entire set after cleanup.



Fifth appearance

Three ko-shapes on the board have their fifth, and last, appearance in the szene
"Life-and-Death Example 18"

However, the plot there is so extremely lengthy and boring that it is not worth reporting on. At this point we almost fell asleep while watching the film.



The PATTERN

Have you already recognized the pattern in the scenes above?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | M X M X M X M X M X M X . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | X P X X X P X X X P X X X X O Q X X Y |
$$ | X O O O O O O O O O O O O O X O O Y . |
$$ | X P . , . . . . . , X X X X X O . O Y |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . X . X . X O O O O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X P O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O P X |
$$ | X X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X M |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | X P O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X M |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O P X |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X M |
$$ | M X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | X P . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O X M |
$$ | X P O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O P X |
$$ | M X P X X X P X X X P X X X P X X P X |
$$ | X M X M X M X M X M X M X M X M M X M |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's always about a double-ko ( :wt: :bt: ) in connection with a (chain of) false eye(s) ( :ex: :wx: ) on the edge of the board.
The same applies to false eyes in the middle of the board, but they require considerably more stones to create them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X P . . X O . . . . . . . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | M X X X X O . . . . . . . X O Q X X Y |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O Y . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . X O . Q . Q X M X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O Q Y X X P O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X O Y . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O Y X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . X O M O . O X . . . . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | . . X Z O O O O X . . . . X O Q X X Y |
$$ | . . . X X X X X X . . . . X X O O Y . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | M O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | O Z X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



The precisely adapted BAN

There is absolutely NO need to ban each and every single re-capture into any ko-shape.

"Capturing into a double-ko to prevent a (chain of) false eye(s) from becoming captured through is prohibited."

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #243 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:37 am 
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Oops a lot of stuff Thomas.
You proposal is quite interesting ideed, but I think you msut avoid to take certain examples in J89 which are really non sense.
Let's take the first one:

Cassandra wrote:
Three ko-shapes on the board have their first appearance in the szene
"Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2", "3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture)."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O . . X O . . . . . . . X Q . Q X . |
$$ | . Y X X X O . . . . . . . X O Q X X Y |
$$ | Y X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O Y . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 4 O 3 . X O . . . . . . . X O 6 O X . |
$$ | O X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X 5 |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 2 . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O O 2 X O . . . . . . . X O X 5 X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X O |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p a s s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | f o r . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | k o . . . . . . . . . . . . . p a s s |
$$ | M M M M . . . . . , . . . . . C C C C |
$$ | . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | 4 . . M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | O 1 3 M . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X P . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Conclusion of the first appearance.


What is the purpose of the lonnnnnnnng sequence shown above?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O . . B O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the purpose is only to prove the two marked black groups are alive then, when applying article 7.1, obviously black has nothing to do with the double ko at the right.

More generally all examples with two independant positions on the board seems to me non sense in the J89 rule.

BTW I am more motivated to try and improve J2003 rather than J89.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #244 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
What is the purpose of the lonnnnnnnng sequence shown above?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O . . B O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the purpose is only to prove the two marked black groups are alive then, when applying article 7.1, obviously black has nothing to do with the double ko at the right.

The one who can read is in advantage...
Cassandra wrote:
Three ko-shapes on the board have their first appearance in the szene
"Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2", "3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture)."


Quote:
More generally all examples with two independant positions on the board seems to me non sense in the J89 rule.

Did you really forget "enable" and its completely excessive application in J89 (similar in J2003)?
Why do you think was the alternative scene for "Example 11" censored that contained the capture of Black's double-ko group AFTER White's moonshine-life group disappeared from the board?


Quote:
BTW I am more motivated to try and improve J2003 rather than J89.

I'm afraid you still haven't understood the problem until now.

Obviously, the authors of J89 did not even try to find a pattern in the triple-ko positions. One possible explanation would be that they had no opportunity to observe. Which, given a probability of 1 in 1 billion, would not be surprising. Which, in turn, would mean that the respective inconsistencies in J89, hyped up by Western rule specialists, never occurred in practice (i.e. maybe once at most).

I would suspect that Western influence had not only led the Japanese to suddenly put rules and regulations in writing, but also to their searching for a "scientifically based" method of achieving the end results they wanted for status confirmation. Which didn't really work as we all know.

The author of J2003 did not even try to find a pattern in the triple-ko positions, too. His analyses were (my assumption in view of his results) primarily aimed at eliminating the weaknesses in J89 with regard to the definition of living groups, and the existing errors in the said unsuccessful "scientifically founded" method as well. Whereby he was very successful, as he created a logically closed set of rules without any contradictions.

As I mentioned several times, J89 was trying to fix something that wasn't broken at all (each and every kind of SINGLE-ko shape).
J2003 only repaired what was broken in J89. The result was a consistent solution to a problem that didn't even exist.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #245 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:50 pm 
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Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
What is the purpose of the lonnnnnnnng sequence shown above?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O . . B O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the purpose is only to prove the two marked black groups are alive then, when applying article 7.1, obviously black has nothing to do with the double ko at the right.

The one who can read is in advantage...
Cassandra wrote:
Three ko-shapes on the board have their first appearance in the szene
"Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2", "3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture)."


Quote:
More generally all examples with two independant positions on the board seems to me non sense in the J89 rule.

Did you really forget "enable" and its completely excessive application in J89 (similar in J2003)?
Why do you think was the alternative scene for "Example 11" censored that contained the capture of Black's double-ko group AFTER White's moonshine-life group disappeared from the board?


Quote:
BTW I am more motivated to try and improve J2003 rather than J89.

I'm afraid you still haven't understood the problem until now.

Obviously, the authors of J89 did not even try to find a pattern in the triple-ko positions. One possible explanation would be that they had no opportunity to observe. Which, given a probability of 1 in 1 billion, would not be surprising. Which, in turn, would mean that the respective inconsistencies in J89, hyped up by Western rule specialists, never occurred in practice (i.e. maybe once at most).

I would suspect that Western influence had not only led the Japanese to suddenly put rules and regulations in writing, but also to their searching for a "scientifically based" method of achieving the end results they wanted for status confirmation. Which didn't really work as we all know.

The author of J2003 did not even try to find a pattern in the triple-ko positions, too. His analyses were (my assumption in view of his results) primarily aimed at eliminating the weaknesses in J89 with regard to the definition of living groups, and the existing errors in the said unsuccessful "scientifically founded" method as well. Whereby he was very successful, as he created a logically closed set of rules without any contradictions.

As I mentioned several times, J89 was trying to fix something that wasn't broken at all (each and every kind of SINGLE-ko shape).
J2003 only repaired what was broken in J89. The result was a consistent solution to a problem that didn't even exist.


What is your point with the double ko shown in the diagram above? You yourself mentionned that we have to handled independant positions (the left ont and the right one) as really independant.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . B O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Assume I want to prove the marked black stones are alive then I see the sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass-for ko :w5: ad libitum
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 4 O 3 6 B O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | 1 B B B B O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I do not care of the double ko. Black stones are simply uncapturable. I do not want to look at a sequence with moves both in the position on the left and position on the right.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #246 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:58 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
What is your point with the double ko shown in the diagram above? You yourself mentionned that we have to handled independant positions (the left ont and the right one) as really independant.

YES, indeed. That's what I assumed so far.

However, J89 did NOT use the following film script!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . X Q . . . . . . . Y O . O X . |
$$ | . X X X X Q . . . . . . . Y O O X X X |
$$ | X X Q Q Q Q . . . . . . . Y Y O O X . |
$$ | Q Q Q , . . . . . , . . . . Y O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y Y Y Y Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Please assume the outside groups ( :wt: // :bt: ) being independently alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O X . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

First run; White begins.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 4 O 3 6 X O . . . . . . . X O . O X 7 |
$$ | O X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O X X X |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O X 5 |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . . X X O . . . . . . . X O . O . O |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O . O |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X P . . X O . . . . . . . X O . O Z . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . . . . . . X O O Z Z Z |
$$ | X X O O O O . . . . . . . X X O O Z . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . X O . O Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Result of status confirmation for run #1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | B P . . B W . . . . . . . B W . P Z . |
$$ | . B B B B W . . . . . . . B W W Z Z Z |
$$ | B B W W W W . . . . . . . B B W W Z . |
$$ | W W W , . . . . . , . . . . B W . W Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B W W W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B B B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Summary result after all runs have been finished; step #1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | B P . . B W . . . . . . . B @ . @ # . |
$$ | . B B B B W . . . . . . . B @ @ # # # |
$$ | B B W W W W . . . . . . . B B @ @ # . |
$$ | W W W , . . . . . , . . . . B @ . @ # |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B @ @ @ @ |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B B B B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Step #2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 2 2 2 2 2 Q . . . . . . . Y 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | 2 2 2 2 2 Q . . . . . . . Y 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | 2 2 Q Q Q Q . . . . . . . Y Y 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | Q Q Q , . . . . . , . . . . Y 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y Y Y Y Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Each and everything that happens INSIDE independently alive groups ( :w1: // :b2: ) is ABSOLUTELY INDEPENDENT from what happens OUTSIDE ( :b2: // :w1: )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O . . X Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X Q Q Q Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | Q Q Q , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

You can consider each of the marked areas above INDIVIDUALLY, and in which order you like. E.g. start with :w2: , ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | B P . . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B B O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

... and continue with :b1: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y Y O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . Y O . O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y Y Y Y Y |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W . P B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W W B B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O W W B . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O W . W Z |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O W W W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O @ . @ # . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O @ @ # # # |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O @ @ # . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O @ . @ # |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O @ @ @ @ |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #247 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:30 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Here is a question on trditional japanese rule relating to unsettled position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C C X . X . |
$$ | C C C X X X X |
$$ | C C C X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

Let's consider the nine marked intersections in upper left corner. There is still room for putting a living white group right?
Your are allowed to configure these nine intersections as you want (white stones, black stones and empty intersections) but the result must be the following:
1) If it is black to play the all white stones can be unconditionnally killed
2) It it is white to play white can live unconditionnally


I will try again. I want to understand what you are talking about.

a) There is still room for a white group in the upper left corner --- IN WHAT SENSE? Yes, there exists at least one configuration of white stones there that would constitute an unconditionally live group. In other words, in confirmation, white moves first, and black simply keeps passing until white has placed another six stones. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. Black is allowed to place stones too, yes?

b) Reconfigure as you will? WHAT do you mean by that. In go, shape matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #248 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:41 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
BTW I am more motivated to try and improve J2003 rather than J89.

As I already stated, J2003 is a logically closed and contradiction free follow-up of J89. Nothing more.

Therefore, it also has the same inconsistency with "enabled" as J89. Of course, J2003 uses a different construction for it, but the effect is the same. You also want to be consistent with J89's "enabled" in your GT territory rules.

To give you something to think about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O X X . P P X . X . P . X . P . X . |
$$ | X X W X . P P X X X P P X X P P X X P |
$$ | X X W X P P P X O O X P X P P X X P P |
$$ | W W W W X X X O O X X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | X . W X . X O . O X . X O X . X O X X |
$$ | X . W X X X O . O X X X O X X X O X . |
$$ | X . W X . X O . O X . X O X . X O O X |
$$ | X . W X X O O . O O X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | X Q W O O . . . . O O O O O O O X X X |
$$ | X Q W , . . . . . , O X X X X X P P . |
$$ | X Q W . . . . O O O O X P P P P P P P |
$$ | X . W . . . . O X X O X P P P P X P . |
$$ | X . W . . . O X . X O X P P P P X X X |
$$ | X . W . . . O X X X O X X X X X P P . |
$$ | X . W O O O O X . X O X . X . X P P P |
$$ | X X W X X X O O X X O O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X P P X X P P X O O O O O X X X |
$$ | X X P P P P X P P P X X O X X X P P . |
$$ | . X P . P . X . P . X . X . X . P P P |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

J89 declares all the White :wx: stones to be "alive" only because White is able to bring three more stones ( :wt: ) onto the board at the outside of their :wc: group that is already alive.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A kibitzer:

Dear players, what do you think who is in the lead in your game?

J89. White:

It's me. I am leading by 17 points on the board.

T. E. A. Black:

Oh no, I am in the lead! It should be evident that I have 128 points more than White on the board.

A kibitzer (thinks to himself in silence):
Oh man, the two of them don't seem to have very much in mind with reality, but at least Black is close.

On the other hand, White lies beyond good and evil with his guess. It's as plain as the nose on your face that the White stones at the top, right and bottom edges are mousy dead.

Granted, there is this weird endgame in the top left corner, but that really doesn't matter here. If Black captured there first, he would be ahead by 118 points on the board. If White captured first, Black would end with one more point.
However, Black's lead of at least 118 points of territory on the board will easily beat the komi.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #249 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:49 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Here is a question on trditional japanese rule relating to unsettled position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C C X . X . |
$$ | C C C X X X X |
$$ | C C C X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

Let's consider the nine marked intersections in upper left corner. There is still room for putting a living white group right?
Your are allowed to configure these nine intersections as you want (white stones, black stones and empty intersections) but the result must be the following:
1) If it is black to play the all white stones can be unconditionnally killed
2) It it is white to play white can live unconditionnally


I will try again. I want to understand what you are talking about.

a) There is still room for a white group in the upper left corner --- IN WHAT SENSE? Yes, there exists at least one configuration of white stones there that would constitute an unconditionally live group. In other words, in confirmation, white moves first, and black simply keeps passing until white has placed another six stones. BUT THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. Black is allowed to place stones too, yes?

b) Reconfigure as you will? WHAT do you mean by that. In go, shape matters.


Mike, maybe my question was not quite clear.
There are no game in my question. You have only to put on the board a position with certain caracteristics and then you give the result according to the confirmation phase.
Let me give you an example.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | O . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O X X X X |
$$ | . O . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

With this position :
1) if it is black to play she can kill white unconditionnally
2) if it is white to play she can live unconditionnally

The conditions are fullfilled => this position is a candidate to be evaluated using confirmation phase.
My question is the following : will the final result depend on the position chosen?

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #250 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:22 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
BTW I am more motivated to try and improve J2003 rather than J89.

As I already stated, J2003 is a logically closed and contradiction free follow-up of J89. Nothing more.

Therefore, it also has the same inconsistency with "enabled" as J89. Of course, J2003 uses a different construction for it, but the effect is the same. You also want to be consistent with J89's "enabled" in your GT territory rules.

To give you something to think about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . O X X . P P X . X . P . X . P . X . |
$$ | X X W X . P P X X X P P X X P P X X P |
$$ | X X W X P P P X O O X P X P P X X P P |
$$ | W W W W X X X O O X X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | X . W X . X O . O X . X O X . X O X X |
$$ | X . W X X X O . O X X X O X X X O X . |
$$ | X . W X . X O . O X . X O X . X O O X |
$$ | X . W X X O O . O O X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | X Q W O O . . . . O O O O O O O X X X |
$$ | X Q W , . . . . . , O X X X X X P P . |
$$ | X Q W . . . . O O O O X P P P P P P P |
$$ | X . W . . . . O X X O X P P P P X P . |
$$ | X . W . . . O X . X O X P P P P X X X |
$$ | X . W . . . O X X X O X X X X X P P . |
$$ | X . W O O O O X . X O X . X . X P P P |
$$ | X X W X X X O O X X O O X X X O X X . |
$$ | . X X X P P X X P P X O O O O O X X X |
$$ | X X P P P P X P P P X X O X X X P P . |
$$ | . X P . P . X . P . X . X . X . P P P |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

J89 declares all the White :wx: stones to be "alive" only because White is able to bring three more stones ( :wt: ) onto the board at the outside of their :wc: group that is already alive.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A kibitzer:

Dear players, what do you think who is in the lead in your game?

J89. White:

It's me. I am leading by 17 points on the board.

T. E. A. Black:

Oh no, I am in the lead! It should be evident that I have 128 points more than White on the board.

A kibitzer (thinks to himself in silence):
Oh man, the two of them don't seem to have very much in mind with reality, but at least Black is close.

On the other hand, White lies beyond good and evil with his guess. It's as plain as the nose on your face that the White stones at the top, right and bottom edges are mousy dead.

Granted, there is this weird endgame in the top left corner, but that really doesn't matter here. If Black captured there first, he would be ahead by 118 points on the board. If White captured first, Black would end with one more point.
However, Black's lead of at least 118 points of territory on the board will easily beat the komi.


In this position obviously it remains a lot of dame in the :wt: area. In addition the top left corner is not settled and white should play in the corner before the end of normal play.
What do you expect from the confirmation phase for this position? You expect really to handle correctly all the remaining dame and to finish correctly the top left corner?

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #251 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:11 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Please stop letting problems with positions resonate implicitly in your questions, which in reality will never reach the status confirmation in their already partially exhaled life. I just don't like it when people play genius for constructing positions and run around a short time later with an IQ of 80 asking stupid questions. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Didn't really help, did it?
:evil: :evil: :evil:

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Post #252 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:53 am 
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J89's pass-for-ko ban: Misinterpreted in the Western Go World?


Returned from walking the labrador two hours ago...

I had been thinking about the Japanese original of J89 about the pass-for-ko ban for a long time, and today it "clicked".

Perhaps when James Davies was translating into English at the time, he was unaware of the critical issues involved and inadvertently chose a translation that could, in extreme individual cases, lead to misunderstandings / misinterpretations.
Since I don't know the Japanese original at the time, I can in no way rule out the possibility that at some point it was touched up by the Nihon Kiin without this touching up finding its way to the West.

James Davies translation is:

Article 7. Life and death
2. In the confirmation of life and death after the game stops in Article 9, recapturing in the same ko is prohibited. A player whose stone has been captured in a ko may, however, capture in that ko again after passing once for that particular ko capture.


The CURRENT Japanese original on the Nihon Kiin website is:

第七条(死活)
2、第九条の「対局の停止」後での死活確認の際における同一の劫での取り返しは、行うことができない。ただし、劫を取られた方が取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき着手放棄を行った後は、新たにその劫を取ることができる。



Disclaimer:
My knowledge of the Japanese language is quite limited. Their understanding as well.
(Google Translate helped me with a first rough draft...)



:w1: 第九条の「対局の停止」後での
After Article 9 "Stopping the game"
:w2: 死活確認の際における
When confirming life and death
:w3: 同一の劫での取り返しは、
Recapturing into the same ko,

:w4: 行うことができない。
Cannot be done.

:w5: ただし、
However,

:w6: 劫を取られた方が
The one who's ko has been been captured,

:w7: 取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき
For each of the ko to recapture
:w8: 着手放棄を行った後は、
After passing,

:w9: 新たにその劫を取ることができる。
Newly you can take that ko.


Separators for related contents of a sentence are "、", "が" and "。"
As mentioned elsewhere, the best way to read context in Japanese is backwards:

After rearranging such related parts (and adjusting the punctuation marks in the English translation respectively):


:w3: 同一の劫での取り返しは、
Recapturing into the same ko
:w2: 死活確認の際における
When confirming life and death
:w1: 第九条の「対局の停止」後での
After Article 9 "Stopping the game",

:w4: 行うことができない。
Cannot be done.

:w5: ただし、
However,

:w6: 劫を取られた方が、
The one who's ko has been been captured,

:w8: 着手放棄を行った後は、
After passing
:w7: 取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき
For each of the ko to recapture,

:w9: 新たにその劫を取ることができる。
Newly can take that ko.


Please take notice that the translation says that it can be recaptured (i.e. a capture into that ko has taken place earlier during status confirmation) into any single ko-shape, ONLY after EVERY existing ko-ban has been lifted!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Let's try to apply my English translation above on L&D example 16.


--------------------------------------------


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b1: captures in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass-for-ko
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape, which re-capture is banned (i.e. shadowed).
:w2: passes-for-ko for the ko in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | C Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Recapturing into that ko is now enabled (marked by :ec:).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O 3 O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | C Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But :b3: captures through, giving atari at White's group to the right. That also makes the ko-shape disappear in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 4 X O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w4: has to recapture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . Q . Q . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape, but no ban, as no Black stone has been captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w6: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 5 Q 7 Q . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b5: gives atari in the corner.
:w6: can only pass.
:b7: captures into a ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass-for-ko
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Immediate recapturing into that ko is banned, so :w8: lifts that ban.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White would be able to recapture now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y O 9 O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

However, Black simply captures through.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X . X . X . X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X . X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


--------------------------------------------


Variation:

What is the fate of the trick to establish a double-ko cycle of
:w1: ko-capture
:b2: ko-capture
:w3: pass-for-ko
:b4: pass-for-ko,
aiming to make capturing White's double-ko group impossible?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b1: captures into the ko-shape in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A ban for immediate recapturing into this ko is established.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X 2 Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w2: captures into the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X X Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates another ko-shape with a ban.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X X Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White's move was an atari, so Black has to capture into the double-ko, too. A third ko-shape with a ban is created.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass-for-ko (in double-ko)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X ? Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White passes for the lower ko-shape in the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This lifts the ban at :ec: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O 5 O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b5: simply captures through at the top. That makes the ko-shape disappear in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black previous move was atari, so :w6: has to recapture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape without ban, because no Black stone has been captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 7 Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black gives atari in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w8: can ONLY pass!
There is still an UNLIFTED ko-ban on the board, so White is hindered to capture with :wc: !

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q 9 Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b9: captures through at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape with a ban for immediate recapturing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w10: pass-for-ko (at left)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w10: passed-for-ko for the ko at the left. She might even simply pass.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Recapturing with :wc: at the top is as impossible as it still is with :wc: in the double-ko, due to the UNLIFTED ban for the upper ko-shape of the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y Q 1 O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b11: simply continues with capturing through.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X . X . X . X O . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X . X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #253 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:46 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Please stop letting problems with positions resonate implicitly in your questions, which in reality will never reach the status confirmation in their already partially exhaled life. I just don't like it when people play genius for constructing positions and run around a short time later with an IQ of 80 asking stupid questions. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Didn't really help, did it?
:evil: :evil: :evil:


Can you show me exactly what "IQ of 80 stupid questions" your are referring to?
That way I will be able to confirm or not if it is really a stupid question.
It may well happen that it is not a stupid question but rather a bad wording of the question wich becomes misunderstood.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #254 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:44 am 
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I can understand that the questions I asked in https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=267059#p267059 were not that clear.
I can here propose another problem adressing exactly the same issue in the rule.

The problem is a little strange so it is only for those who like strange and unusual problems (maybe Thomas will not like it but other readers may be interested).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | X X . . X X O . . |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

The problem is the following : it is black to play and assume that the black move will be the last move of this game (IOW it does not matter if the position will be unsettled, the game will stop after the first black move, and the result of the game will be immediately evaluated using common confirmation phase).
Now is the question : what is for black the WORSE move ? (I mean the move that give the worse result for black).
Take pleasure :)

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #255 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:13 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Please stop letting problems with positions resonate implicitly in your questions, which in reality will never reach the status confirmation in their already partially exhaled life. I just don't like it when people play genius for constructing positions and run around a short time later with an IQ of 80 asking stupid questions. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Didn't really help, did it?
:evil: :evil: :evil:


Can you show me exactly what "IQ of 80 stupid questions" your are referring to?
That way I will be able to confirm or not if it is really a stupid question.
It may well happen that it is not a stupid question but rather a bad wording of the question wich becomes misunderstood.

Newest one:

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=267108#p267108

There is NO bad wording, but you are led by "unwishful" thinking.
There is NOTHING to be misunderstood but that you want to kid me.

I think that even people with an IQ lower than yours will understand, unlike you:


If the status confirmation result of a specific position in question
after the application of Honte's DOUBLE-ko spell does
NOT match
that of J89, J2003, GT, or whatsoever,
it contains FAKE double-ko shapes FOR SURE.



I am not your nanny. You have to track down the very obvious mistakes yourself.

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The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #256 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:25 pm 
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Cassandra wrote:
Newest one:

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=267108#p267108

There is NO bad wording, but you are led by "unwishful" thinking.
There is NOTHING to be misunderstood but that you want to kid me.

I think that even people with an IQ lower than yours will understand, unlike you:


If the status confirmation result of a specific position in question
after the application of Honte's DOUBLE-ko spell does
NOT match
that of J89, J2003, GT, or whatsoever,
it contains FAKE double-ko shapes FOR SURE.



I am not your nanny. You have to track down the very obvious mistakes yourself.


OK we can't agree on everything can we?
You think the application of Honte's DOUBLE-ko spell must not cause problems while I think changing a configuration by another may be OK for some situations but non OK for others. Non agreement is part of life isn't it? I found some other positions which might also cause problems with Honte's DOUBLE-ko spell. I still need some verification but, because for sure they must contain FAKE double-ko shapes, I will keep these positions for myself. I cannot say more on Honte's DOUBLE-ko spell.

BTW, in any case, even if disagreement, be sure I always respect your person Thomas. I always treat you as a person fond of GO as myself and you must not believe I am against you. It is a non sense. I may be against some ideas in the go world but an idea on Go is not a person is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #257 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:14 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Here is a question on trditional japanese rule relating to unsettled position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C C X . X . |
$$ | C C C X X X X |
$$ | C C C X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

Let's consider the nine marked intersections in upper left corner. There is still room for putting a living white group right?
Your are allowed to configure these nine intersections as you want (white stones, black stones and empty intersections) but the result must be the following:
1) If it is black to play the all white stones can be unconditionnally killed
2) It it is white to play white can live unconditionnally

Assume the game stops in this unsettled situation and you use "traditionnal" japanese rule.
1) Can the expected result depends of the specific position chosen?
2) If not, what is for you the expected result?

Thank you for your answer because it is really unclear for me. Black territory? Seki? No result? Both player lose? other?


It doesn't depend on the position of the White stones, but it depends on the rest of the board.
If one of the players who looses the local fight still wins because he has enough point in the rest of the board, he'll ask to resume the game, loose the fight, then win the game.
If both players loose the game if they loose the local fight, then none will ask to resume the game, while a move exists that decides the fate of the group. In this case, both players loose.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #258 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:40 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Here is a question on trditional japanese rule relating to unsettled position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | C C C X . X . |
$$ | C C C X X X X |
$$ | C C C X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------+[/go]

Let's consider the nine marked intersections in upper left corner. There is still room for putting a living white group right?
Your are allowed to configure these nine intersections as you want (white stones, black stones and empty intersections) but the result must be the following:
1) If it is black to play the all white stones can be unconditionnally killed
2) It it is white to play white can live unconditionnally

Assume the game stops in this unsettled situation and you use "traditionnal" japanese rule.
1) Can the expected result depends of the specific position chosen?
2) If not, what is for you the expected result?

Thank you for your answer because it is really unclear for me. Black territory? Seki? No result? Both player lose? other?


It doesn't depend on the position of the White stones, but it depends on the rest of the board.
If one of the players who looses the local fight still wins because he has enough point in the rest of the board, he'll ask to resume the game, loose the fight, then win the game.
If both players loose the game if they loose the local fight, then none will ask to resume the game, while a move exists that decides the fate of the group. In this case, both players loose.


I think you refer to "Commentary on Article 13, Both Players Lose, Clause 1" and Diagram 19.
Yes I said that the game stopped in the position built (that means I assumed two successive passes occured). Yes both player should have avoid to pass, that's true. But I never claim that the players do not agree that the game has ended.
In my problem, because I really assume both players agree the game has ended (neither player want to resume the game because it will allow the opponent to play first) the confirmation phase will begin directly on the position built.

You said "It doesn't depend on the position of the White stones, but it depends on the rest of the board..
I agree with you but because you mentionned only the white stones I am wondering if you took into account that, on the nine points, you are allowed to put also black stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #259 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:12 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
In my problem, because I really assume both players agree the game has ended (neither player want to resume the game because it will allow the opponent to play first) the confirmation phase will begin directly on the position built.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
The game ends after the confirmation phase, not before.
The players agree that the game has ended only if they agree about the life and death of all groups.
If they can't agree, they both loose. Right ?

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 Post subject: Re: Japonese counting
Post #260 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:06 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
In my problem, because I really assume both players agree the game has ended (neither player want to resume the game because it will allow the opponent to play first) the confirmation phase will begin directly on the position built.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
The game ends after the confirmation phase, not before.
The players agree that the game has ended only if they agree about the life and death of all groups.
If they can't agree, they both loose. Right ?


Yes my previous post was not very clear. Let'me try to reformulate the problem.
My questions was:
Assume the game stops in this unsettled situation and you use "traditionnal" japanese rule.
1) Can the expected result depends of the specific position chosen?
2) If not, what is for you the expected result?


The first point to note is the wording "TRADITIONAL" japanese rule instead of J89 or whatever you want.
The second point to note is the wording "2) If not, what is FOR YOU the expected result"

I believe (hope?) we all know the result of any position you can built when using J89 or J2003 but, when applying such rules I found some strange results. For that reason I would like to know what could be FOR YOU the expected result, without being influenced by your knowledge of J89 or J2003 rules. In fact I am asking for your feeling in order to know later which rule fit really your feeling as a go player and not as a rule expert.

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