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 Post subject: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go World?
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:43 am 
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J89's pass-for-ko ban: Misinterpreted in the Western Go World?


I had been thinking about the Japanese original of J89 about the pass-for-ko ban for a long time, and today it "clicked".

Perhaps when James Davies was translating into English at the time, he was unaware of the critical issues involved and inadvertently chose a translation that could, in extreme individual cases, lead to misunderstandings / misinterpretations.
Since I don't know the Japanese original at the time, I can in no way rule out the possibility that at some point it was touched up by the Nihon Kiin without this touching up finding its way to the West.

James Davies translation is:

Article 7. Life and death
2. In the confirmation of life and death after the game stops in Article 9, recapturing in the same ko is prohibited. A player whose stone has been captured in a ko may, however, capture in that ko again after passing once for that particular ko capture.


The CURRENT Japanese original on the Nihon Kiin website is:

第七条(死活)
2、第九条の「対局の停止」後での死活確認の際における同一の劫での取り返しは、行うことができない。ただし、劫を取られた方が取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき着手放棄を行った後は、新たにその劫を取ることができる。



Disclaimer:
My knowledge of the Japanese language is quite limited. Their understanding as well.
(Google Translate helped me with a first rough draft...)



:w1: 第九条の「対局の停止」後での
After Article 9 "Stopping the game"
:w2: 死活確認の際における
When confirming life and death
:w3: 同一の劫での取り返しは、
Recapturing into the same ko,

:w4: 行うことができない。
Cannot be done.

:w5: ただし、
However,

:w6: 劫を取られた方が
The one who's ko has been been captured,

:w7: 取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき
For each of the ko to recapture
:w8: 着手放棄を行った後は、
After passing,

:w9: 新たにその劫を取ることができる。
Newly you can take that ko.


Separators for related contents of a sentence are "、", "が" and "。"
As mentioned elsewhere, the best way to read context in Japanese is backwards:

After rearranging such related parts (and adjusting the punctuation marks in the English translation respectively):


:w3: 同一の劫での取り返しは、
Recapturing into the same ko
:w2: 死活確認の際における
When confirming life and death
:w1: 第九条の「対局の停止」後での
After Article 9 "Stopping the game",

:w4: 行うことができない。
Cannot be done.

:w5: ただし、
However,

:w6: 劫を取られた方が、
The one who's ko has been been captured,

:w8: 着手放棄を行った後は、
After passing
:w7: 取り返す劫のそれぞれにつき
For each of the ko to recapture,

:w9: 新たにその劫を取ることができる。
Newly can take that ko.


Please take notice that the translation says that it can be recaptured (i.e. a capture into that ko has taken place earlier during status confirmation) into any single ko-shape, ONLY after EVERY existing ko-ban has been lifted!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Let's try to apply my English translation above on L&D example 16.


--------------------------------------------


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b1: captures in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass-for-ko
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape, which re-capture is banned (i.e. shadowed).
:w2: passes-for-ko for the ko in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | C Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Recapturing into that ko is now enabled (marked by :ec:).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O 3 O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | C Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But :b3: captures through, giving atari at White's group to the right. That also makes the ko-shape disappear in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 4 X O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w4: has to recapture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . Q . Q . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape, but no ban, as no Black stone has been captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w6: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 5 Q 7 Q . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b5: gives atari in the corner.
:w6: can only pass.
:b7: captures into a ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass-for-ko
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Immediate recapturing into that ko is banned, so :w8: lifts that ban.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White would be able to recapture now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y O 9 O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

However, Black simply captures through.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X . X . X . X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X . X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


--------------------------------------------


Variation:

What is the fate of the trick to establish a double-ko cycle of
:w1: ko-capture
:b2: ko-capture
:w3: pass-for-ko
:b4: pass-for-ko,
aiming to make capturing White's double-ko group impossible?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 Q O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | Q X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b1: captures into the ko-shape in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X . Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

A ban for immediate recapturing into this ko is established.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X 2 Y O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w2: captures into the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X X Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates another ko-shape with a ban.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X X Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X Q 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X Q O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White's move was an atari, so Black has to capture into the double-ko, too. A third ko-shape with a ban is created.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass-for-ko (in double-ko)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X ? Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White passes for the lower ko-shape in the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O . O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This lifts the ban at :ec: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | Y O O 5 O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | ? Y X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b5: simply captures through at the top. That makes the ko-shape disappear in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . 6 X O . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black previous move was atari, so :w6: has to recapture.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape without ban, because no Black stone has been captured.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 7 Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black gives atari in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w8: can ONLY pass!
There is still an UNLIFTED ko-ban on the board, so White is hindered to capture with :wc: !

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q 9 Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b9: captures through at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This creates a ko-shape with a ban for immediate recapturing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w10: pass-for-ko (at left)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y ? Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w10: passed-for-ko for the ko at the left. She might even simply pass.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Recapturing with :wc: at the top is as impossible as it still is with :wc: in the double-ko, due to the UNLIFTED ban for the upper ko-shape of the double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X Y C Y Q 1 O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X Y O O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:b11: simply continues with capturing through.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X . X . X . X O . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X . X . X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #2 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:45 am 
Oza

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I don't really understand the point you are making, and don't want to, and haven't made any attempt to do so - this is rules and so no man's land for me.

But on a pure language level, the Davies translation looks a little bit free to me (i.e. interpreted rather than translated), but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was wrong. As to why, the basic grammar point is as follows.

There is a small group of adverbs in Japanese which can be treated as synonyms: sorezore, onoono, meimei and menmen. They are all nouns (and have the grammar of pure nouns) but are typically used adverbially (e.g. by addition of ni, but as nouns they can be followed by other things) with an implied meaning of plurality but in a distributive way (i.e. "each"). When used adverbially (not as here, the ni tsuki being a phrasal postposition with various meanings, and slightly literary) the typical translation will be the bzw beloved of German speakers, i.e. respectively. But, as with 'respectively', the distributive reference is often vague.

We have a similar problem in English. If I say "I only do the shopping on Sundays" do I mean "The shopping I do is done only on Sundays" or "On Sundays, I do nothing but the shopping."

The only real answer (as with "only" sentences) is not to have arguments over interpretation, but to rewrite the original. In the absence of that, of course, arguments may rage.

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #3 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:18 am 
Lives in sente

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Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q . Q . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w8: can ONLY pass!
There is still an UNLIFTED ko-ban on the board, so White is hindered to capture with :wc: !


This :w8: pass is quite strange indeed.
Let me change a little the position to the following one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O . . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

How black can kill white? Let's try
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 4 X O 5 . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

and we reach the following position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O ? O X . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X ? X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now how black can continue if white pass forever, always refusing to choose a pass-for-ko (in the double ko)

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #4 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:50 am 
Judan

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Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w8: can ONLY pass!
There is still an UNLIFTED ko-ban on the board, so White is hindered to capture with :wc: !


Please explain meticulously why, at this moment, this is so according to your current reading of the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #5 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:35 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
This :w8: pass is quite strange indeed.
Let me change a little the position to the following one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O . . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

How black can kill white? Let's try
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 4 X O 5 . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

and we reach the following position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O ? O X . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X ? X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now how black can continue if white pass forever, always refusing to choose a pass-for-ko (in the double ko)

This is a typical Igo-Hatsuyôron-120-ish "Why not play there?" moment.
:D :D :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O 1 . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs, really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #6 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:54 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
This :w8: pass is quite strange indeed.
Let me change a little the position to the following one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O . . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

How black can kill white? Let's try
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 4 X O 5 . O X 2 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O 3 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

and we reach the following position
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X O ? O X . O X O ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X ? X O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now how black can continue if white pass forever, always refusing to choose a pass-for-ko (in the double ko)

This is a typical Igo-Hatsuyôron-120-ish "Why not play there?" moment.
:D :D :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O 1 . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yes why not?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 2 X O 1 . O X 4 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O 5 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

with exactly the same result

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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #7 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:03 am 
Lives in gote

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1. I'd place a bit more trust into Davies translation than into Google.

2. This interpretation ignores the "sono ko" part, ie. "that (particular) ko". Which would make much less sense with your interpretation.

3. This would also seem to go against normal go logic (unlike ko passes themselves). OC all this irrelevant if Japanese authors clarify.

4. If you want to reinterpret J89, another idea: "passing once for that particular ko capture" might mean the ko can be freely (according the normal ko rule) taken by the player afterwards, without passing for it next time. (edit: for clarity)


Last edited by jann on Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: J89's pass-for-ko: Misinterpreted in the Western Go Worl
Post #8 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:54 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X X Q . Q . O X Q ? O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X Q O O O X Y Q O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X X X O X C Y O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X O X X Y O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

:w8: can ONLY pass!
There is still an UNLIFTED ko-ban on the board, so White is hindered to capture with :wc: !


Please explain meticulously why, at this moment, this is so according to your current reading of the rules.

Dear Robert,

Let me first go a little further ...

In the thread GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles -- completely unintentional during the analysis of loops and cycles -- has been discovered, and thereafter explained in great detail, that a (GENUINE) double-ko does not have any effect during status confirmation.

It does not make any difference,
:w1: whether it is kept in its original formation, as utilising the double-ko cycle (ko-capture, ko-capture, pass / tenuki, ko-capture, ko-capture, pass / tenuki) has the SAME effect as playing elsewhere (=> pass / tenuki, pass / tenuki)
:w2: whether -- it being a (at least temporary) seki -- it is transformed into an equivalent (at least temporary) seki that does not contain any ko-shape. In this case, the four meaningless ko-captures in :w1: are excluded from the very beginning.
:w3: (not explicity mentioned there) when being part of a sandwich-formation (i.e. at least three groups are involved in a joint status analysis), whether the double-ko is replaced by an independently alive group of the colour that is neighboured to the rest of the sandwich. That will save the possible "collapse of the seki".

I have summarized this strikingly with "There is no double-ko during the status confirmation" in the thread linked to above.


Your J2003's "pass-for-all-ko" ultimately led to keeping :w1: alive.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let us analyze the behavior resulting from my understanding of the Japanese original using the example of a standard (i.e. isolated) double-ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y . Y O X . .
$$ | X X Y O O X . .
$$ | Q X O . O X . .
$$ | . Q O O O X . .
$$ | Q O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y . Y O X . .
$$ | X X Y O O X . .
$$ | Q X O . O X . .
$$ | 1 Q O O O X . .
$$ | Q O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

:b1: captures into the ko-shape at left.
(The position is symmetrical, so the result would be the same (just with reversed colours), if we let White start the status confirmation by capturing into the ko-shape at the top.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y . Y O X . .
$$ | Y X Y O O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

During status confirmation, capturing into a ko-shape turns this ko-shape into a "hot" one (in the sense of "explosive").
IMMEDIATE re-capture into that ko is forbidden, while the player who just created this "hot" ko would still be allowed to fill it (which might not always be the best idea, by the way).
(I utilised :ex: here (instead of the shadow) to make this "hotness" more explicite in the diagram.)
:wx: is forbidden, while :bx: is a valid move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y 2 Y O X . .
$$ | Y X Y O O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black's previous move was an atari, so :w2: has to capture into the ko at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q M Q X . .
$$ | Y X Y Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

This turns the ko-shape at the top into a "hot" one, too.
For that ko at the top, :bx: is forbidden, while :wx: is a valid move.

After White's ko-capture at the top, there are TWO of these "hot" ko on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass-for-ko (top)
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q M Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Let us assume that Black wanted to re-capture into that ko at the top at all costs.
In this case, he must play a "pass-for-ko" for that ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q T Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

By Black's previous move, that ko at the top has lost its "hot" status.
However, the ko-shape at the top has NOT returned into it "ordinary" status! Whether Black is allowed or not to re-capture into that ko at the top DEPENDS (thus the :et: to make that clearer)!!!

On the board, there is still ONE of these "hot" ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q T Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O S O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

:wt: at the top would be IMMEDIATELY suicidal, so White plays a "pass" ( :ws: to the right would be suicidal as well, just a bit later).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b5: would be illegal!!!
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q 5 Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

At the left edge, there is still ONE of these "hot" ko on the board, so re-capturing into that ko at the top is forbidden during status confirmation!!!

-------------------------

Variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass-for-ko (left)
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q T Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | M Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

White plays a "pass-for-ko" for that still "hot" ko at the left.
This is what has been choosen for the respective J89 sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q T Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | T Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

ALL of these former "hot" ko have disappeared from the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q . Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | . Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

ALL of these former "hot" ko-shapes have become "ordinary" again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . X Q 5 Q X . .
$$ | Y X X Q O X . .
$$ | . Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Capturing into the ko-shape at the top is a valid move, as there are NEITHER "hot" ko on the board NOR "depends" ones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y M Y O X . .
$$ | Y X Y O O X . .
$$ | 6 Y O . O X . .
$$ | Y O O O O X . .
$$ | O O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Capturing into the ko-shape at the left is a valid move, too.
Admittedly, there is one of these "hot" ko on the board, but it has been created after someone pressed the reset button.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . Y M Y O X . .
$$ | X X Y O O X . .
$$ | Q X O . O X . .
$$ | M Q O O O X . .
$$ | Q O X X X X . .
$$ | X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Please be aware that the corresponding sequence(s) in J89 END HERE!
Until here, J89 has already proven that -- after "pass-for-ko" for ALL of these (earlier) "hot" ko -- re-capturing into these has become valid again.

Going any further would not have made any sense, as the sequence from above would be repeated with reversed colours only.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++

SINGLE ko-shapes behave as "usual".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | X . X O . O X . .
$$ | X X O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

A tiny variation of "moonshine life".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X 1 X O . O X . .
$$ | X X O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:w1: captures into that ko at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q M Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It results one of these "hot" ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass-for-ko
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q M Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black plays a "pass-for-ko" for that "hot" ko at the top, as he badly wants to re-capture into that ko, in order to take White's stones to the right off the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q T Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The status of that ko at the top has changed to "depends".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q . Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:et: can only exist on the board as long as there are still :ex:. Seems that someone pressed the reset button.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: pass
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q . Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

There is nothing White could do, so she plays a "pass".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X Q 4 Q . O X . .
$$ | X X Q O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:b4: is a valid re-capture, as there is NEITHER any of these "hot" ko on the board NOR any of the "depends" type.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w5: pass-for-ko
$$ +------------------
$$ | Y M Y O . O X . .
$$ | X Y O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

White does not want to let her group becoming captured, so she plays a "pass-for-ko" for that just appeared "hot" ko at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | Y T Y O . O X . .
$$ | X Y O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The status of that ko has changed to "depends".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | Y . Y O . O X . .
$$ | X Y O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Someone pressed the reset button again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | Y . Y O 6 O X . .
$$ | X Y O O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But White will be unable to re-capture into that ko, as Black is faster.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------
$$ | X . X . X . X . .
$$ | X X . . . . X . .
$$ | . X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

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Last edited by Cassandra on Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:26 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
I don't really understand the point you are making, and don't want to, and haven't made any attempt to do so - this is rules and so no man's land for me.

But on a pure language level, the Davies translation looks a little bit free to me (i.e. interpreted rather than translated), but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was wrong. As to why, the basic grammar point is as follows.

There is a small group of adverbs in Japanese which can be treated as synonyms: sorezore, onoono, meimei and menmen. They are all nouns (and have the grammar of pure nouns) but are typically used adverbially (e.g. by addition of ni, but as nouns they can be followed by other things) with an implied meaning of plurality but in a distributive way (i.e. "each"). When used adverbially (not as here, the ni tsuki being a phrasal postposition with various meanings, and slightly literary) the typical translation will be the bzw beloved of German speakers, i.e. respectively. But, as with 'respectively', the distributive reference is often vague.

We have a similar problem in English. If I say "I only do the shopping on Sundays" do I mean "The shopping I do is done only on Sundays" or "On Sundays, I do nothing but the shopping."

The only real answer (as with "only" sentences) is not to have arguments over interpretation, but to rewrite the original. In the absence of that, of course, arguments may rage.

Dear John,

Thank you very much indeed for your posting.

The "?" at the end of the thread's title has a purpose. :razz:
And the result of my very amateurish translation attempt works!

However, as I already mentioned...

Cassaandra wrote:
Since I don't know the Japanese original at the time, I can in no way rule out the possibility that at some point it was touched up by the Nihon Kiin without this touching up finding its way to the West.

Am I really the first to notice that some L&D examples have been changed from the state of the rules at the time of this translation by James Davies?

:w1: "Life-and-Death Example 11: False Eye with DOUBLE Ko" is now "Life-and-Death Example 11: False Eye with THOUSAND-YEAR Ko"
:w2: "Life-and-Death Example 18" now has a NESTED ko-shape ALSO for WHITE's dead group in the DOUBLE-ko (which creates a VERY DIFFERENT kind of double-ko as in the other examples), instead of the nested ko-shape for Black's alive group only (which does not make any difference to a solidly enclosed eye; it's the shape of WHITE's dead group that matters!).

I remember that Robert repeatedly reported from several very intense rule discussions with Saijo Masataka (one of two authers of J89, as Robert told us).

If you realize that some of the L&D examples that contain "potentially critical" (as we all know now) DOUBLE-ko formations have been updated, would it be so unthinkable that the legal text of the rules would have been improved at the same time?

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Post #10 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:45 pm 
Judan

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I repeat my question for the particular position at the current moment.

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Post #11 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:59 pm 
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The 1989 rules are published with commentary.

Take a look at Commentary on Article 7, Clause 2, Example 3.

Quote:
Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2
[...]
3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture).


I'd copy it all here but the heading says it all!

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Post #12 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:39 pm 
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kvasir wrote:
The 1989 rules are published with commentary.

Take a look at Commentary on Article 7, Clause 2, Example 3.

Quote:
Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2
[...]
3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture).


I'd copy it all here but the heading says it all!

Thank you for the correction.

Then when I was comparing English / Japanese I was probably in different places in different browser tabs.
Or I messed it up in memory.

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Post #13 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:07 pm 
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kvasir wrote:
Quote:
Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2
[...]
3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture).

That particular example needs a bit of caution though, with dubious sentences like this:
Quote:
Note that if White 7 was a pass for the ko 6/11 on the right, Black could have played 8 at 12 and captured the white group on the right.

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Post #14 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:39 pm 
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jann wrote:
kvasir wrote:
Quote:
Commentary on Article 7, Life and death, Clause 2
[...]
3. Approach-move ko with double-ko seki (example of capturing again after passing for that particular ko capture).

That particular example needs a bit of caution though, with dubious sentences like this:
Quote:
Note that if White 7 was a pass for the ko 6/11 on the right, Black could have played 8 at 12 and captured the white group on the right.

This note -- that contains an obious mistake -- has been deleted in the meantime from the Japanese original.
Should it ever have been in the legal text at the time of the translation into English.

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Post #15 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 10:14 pm 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
This is a typical Igo-Hatsuyôron-120-ish "Why not play there?" moment.
:D :D :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O 1 . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Yes why not?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X 2 X O 1 . O X 4 X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O 5 O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

with exactly the same result

Oh, sorry, that was just a kind of trial balloon to find out if your nanny got an exit. :razz:
Since that seems to be the case, another suggestion for you:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | X O . X . X O . . |
$$ | X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . |
$$ | O O X O O O O O O |
$$ | X X O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X X X O O O X O |
$$ | . . , X X X X X X |
$$ | . X . X . . . . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

A snapshot from a game on the 9x9 board; komi = 7.5; no prisoners.

:b1: What do you think, has White already passed for stopping the game?

To make the suggestion clear:
:w1: As a rules expert, will you ever be asked to do a status analysis for this position?
:w2: If so, what could have been the questioner's motive?

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Post #16 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:50 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
jann wrote:
That particular example needs a bit of caution though, with dubious sentences like this:
Quote:
Note that if White 7 was a pass for the ko 6/11 on the right, Black could have played 8 at 12 and captured the white group on the right.

This note -- that contains an obious mistake -- has been deleted in the meantime from the Japanese original.
Should it ever have been in the legal text at the time of the translation into English.


My point was only that if you wish to find ambiguity in the translation vis-à-vis the original it is not enough to stumble on a single word somewhere, you need to take into account if the correct interpretation can be determined by for example the commentary. In this case the translation has multiple examples of passing for a specific ko before recapturing, and these same examples are in the original.

The translation appears to be more precise in specifying which ko is being passed for than the original. I checked with google translate and surprisingly this example refers to passes for the "top corner" and "bottom corner" so there is something different going on there that might be interesting to find an explanation for.

Some of the commentary is also puzzling in that "confirmation" has the players fighting over a double-ko elsewhere on the board without addressing why there is not an infinite cycle (except the incorrect "note" that Jann pointed to that doesn't appear to be found in the original).

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Post #17 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:00 am 
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The other linguistic question may still remain though:
jann wrote:
"passing once for that particular ko capture" might mean the ko can be freely (according the normal ko rule) taken by the player afterwards, without passing for it next time. (edit: for clarity)

In Japanese the relevant sentence reads: "Tadashi kō o torareta kata ga torikaesu kō no sorezore ni tsuki chakushu hōki o okonatta nochi wa, arata ni sono kō o toru koto ga dekiru."

Davies: "A player whose stone has been captured in a ko may, however, capture in that ko again after passing ONCE for that particular ko capture."

My Japanese is not good enough, but "ONCE" does not seem to be emphasized in Japanese. Still it seems possible to interpret both ways (nochi ... arata ni), and I'm not sure if this is clarified anywhere in the commentary.

OC, if passing is really only required once for each ko and not for later recaptures there, most of the double ko problems could disappear.


Last edited by jann on Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #18 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:23 am 
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jann wrote:
The other linguistic question may still remain though:
jann wrote:
"passing once for that particular ko capture" might mean the ko can be freely (normally) taken by the player afterwards, without passing for it next time.

In Japanese the relevant sentence reads: "Tadashi kō o torareta kata ga torikaesu kō no sorezore ni tsuki chakushu hōki o okonatta nochi wa, arata ni sono kō o toru koto ga dekiru."

Davies: "A player whose stone has been captured in a ko may, however, capture in that ko again after passing ONCE for that particular ko capture."

My Japanese is not good enough, but "ONCE" does not seem to be emphasized in Japanese. Still it seems possible to interpret both ways (nochi ... arata ni), and I'm not sure if this is clarified anywhere in the commentary.

OC if passing is really only required once for each ko and not for later recaptures there, most of the double ko problems could disappear.


Surely I cannot read japanese and I am not able to guess the intention of the rule author, but take the following position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O . . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


With the curent James Davies translation white stones at the top are dead and with Thomas interpretation they are alive.
If you are able to say which is the expected result for this position then you will automatically know if, on this point, James Davies translation is correct or not.
Note that, basically, this position corresponds simply to moonshine life position.

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Post #19 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:29 am 
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I was talking about the third possible interpretation (pass for ko only needed once for each ko, for the first recapture - see above), which makes W dead here (and will likely agree with Davies / traditional interpretation in most cases, except a double ko cannot be abused in confirmation).

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Post #20 Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:29 am 
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Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Surely I cannot read japanese and I am not able to guess the intention of the rule author, but take the following position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | X . X O . . O X . X O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O X X O O O O X . . . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X O X O . O X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O X X X O O X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]




This results in repeated positions if white insists on always taking in the double-ko. The j89 rules are flawed in that they do not compel an end to the game, the players can agree on a "no result" during the game per article 12 but now we are in "confirmation" and there appears to be nothing in the rules about the possibility of repeated positions during "confirmation" but the players can resume the game and try to agree on "no result". I don't see how passing for a ko has anything to do with this if white just insists to always capture in the double-ko.

You just can't talk about things like "the expected result" when there is nothing to compel a unique result.

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