It is currently Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:03 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #1 Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:07 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Using the Commentary and the L&D-Examples, I will try to find out what the IMPLICIT Japanese understanding of the intended application of Article 7 of J89's legal text is (and what -- according to Western understanding -- should have been EXPLITELY described).



Commentary


7.1.U-type of stones

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +----------------------------------------
$$ |OB.B.BO..|....BO..|..B.BOO...|.WWW.BO..|
$$ |OBBBBBO..|BBBBBO..|.BWBBBOO..|BBBBBBO..|
$$ |OOOOOOO..|OOOOOO..|BWWWWBBO..|OOOOOOO..|
$$ |.........|........|.BW.WBBO..|.........|
$$ |.........|........|BBBW.WBO..|.........|
$$ |.........|........|OBBWWWBO..|.........|
$$ |.........|........|OOBBBBBO..|.........|
$$ |.........|........|.OOOOOOO..|.........|
$$ |.......MM|......MM|........MM|.......MM|
$$ |.......Ma|......Mb|........Mc|.......Md|
$$ +----------------------------------------[/go]

Alive stones =

A) Two solidly connected eyes.
B) Large eye that can be divided (=> A), even if the opponent plays first.
C) Not solidly connected eyes (at least two).
D) Filled large eye as a seki.


Implicit understanding:
Fencing stones (not marked here in the diagrams for the sake of clarity) are considered to be of the 7.1.U-type.




7.1.C-type of stones

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------------
$$ |. # OO..|# # OO..|.........|
$$ |OOXO..|O.XO..|..XXXXO..|
$$ |XXX...|XXX...|.XOO.XO..|
$$ |......|......|.XOO#O...|
$$ |......|......|.XXXOO...|
$$ |....MM|....MM|.......MM|
$$ |....Ma|....Mb|.......Mc|
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Alive stones =

A) B) C) Uttegaeshi's (aka "snap-back") potentially captured stones.


-------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------
$$ |1 # OO? ? |# # OO? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
$$ |OOXO? ? |O1XO? ? |? ? XXXXO? ? |
$$ |XXX? ? ?|XXX? ? ?|?XOO1XO? ? |
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?XOO#O? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?XXXOO? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? ? ? ?MM|
$$ |? ? ? ? Ma|? ? ? ? Mb|? ? ? ? ? ? ?Mc|
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------
$$ |O 2 OO? ? |? 2 OO? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
$$ |OOXO? ? |OOXO? ? |? ? XXXXO? ? |
$$ |XXX? ? ?|XXX? ? ?|?XOOOXO? ? |
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?XOO2O? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?XXXOO? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? ? ? ?MM|
$$ |? ? ? ? Ma|? ? ? ? Mb|? ? ? ? ? ? ?Mc|
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------
$$ |? B OO? ? |? # OO? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?|
$$ |? ?XO? ? |OOXO? ? |? ? XXXXO? ? |
$$ |XXX? ? ?|XXX? ? ?|?X? ? ?XO? ? |
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?X? ?BO? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? |? ? ? ? ? ? |?XXXOO? ? ?|
$$ |? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? MM|? ? ? ? ? ? ?MM|
$$ |? ? ? ? Ma|? ? ? ? Ma|? ? ? ? ? ? ?Mc|
$$ +------------------------[/go]

NOT SHOWN: Move sequences.


Implicit understanding:
Presupposed basic knowledge?


Implicit understanding:
Stones that could be re-established in total because they were previously captured, are of the 7.1.C-type.
Total re-establishment will result in territory.



-------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-------------------
$$ |? # # ? O ? X ? ? |
$$ |O O O O O ? X ? ? |
$$ |X X X X X X X ? ? |
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ |? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +-------------------[/go]

NOT EXPLICITLY mentioned: Nakade.


Implicit understanding:
Presupposed basic knowledge?


Implicit understanding:
Stones that could be re-established in total because they were previously captured, are of the 7.1.C-type.
Total re-establishment will result in territory.




7.1.D-type of stones

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------------
$$ |.XOO..|XXOO..|.........|
$$ |PPXO..|P.XO..|..XXXXO..|
$$ |XXX...|XXX...|.XPP.XO..|
$$ |......|......|.XPPXO...|
$$ |......|......|.XXXOO...|
$$ |....MM|....MM|.......MM|
$$ |....Ma|....Mb|.......Mc|
$$ +------------------------[/go]

Dead stones =

A) B) C) Uttegaeshi's (aka "snap-back") potentially capturing stones.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +-------------------------------
$$ |.OO.ZO..|..Z.Z.ZO..|..........|
$$ |ZOOZZO..|.OOZZZZO..|..OOO.....|
$$ |ZZZZOO..|...OOOOO..|.OZZO.....|
$$ |OOOO....|..........|.OZ.ZOO...|
$$ |........|..........|.OZZ.Z.O..|
$$ |........|..........|.O.OZZ.O..|
$$ |........|..........|...O..O...|
$$ |........|..........|....O.....|
$$ |......MM|........MM|........MM|
$$ |......Md|........Me|........Mf|
$$ +-------------------------------[/go]

Dead stones =

D) Large eye with nakade.
E) One solidly connected eye & one false eye.
F) One not solidly connected eye & one false eye / two false eyes / one solidly connected eye.


-------------------------

NOT SHOWN: Move sequences.


Implicit understanding:
Presupposed basic knowledge?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #2 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:09 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 1


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +--------------
$$ | . # # O . . |
$$ | @ # # O . . |
$$ | X O O O . . |
$$ | X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bs: Black's four stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
:ws: White's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.



Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 X X O . . | O M M O . . | O . . O . . | O . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O . . | O M M O . . | O 2 . O . . | O B . O . . |
$$ | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . |
$$ | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------------------------------------------------[/go]


---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b6: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------
$$ | O 3 4 O ? ? | ? 7 X O ? ? | ? O ? O ? ? |
$$ | O X ? O ? ? | 8 X 5 O ? ? | X B O O ? ? |
$$ | X O O O ? ? | X O O O ? ? | X O O O ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------[/go]

NOT SHOWN: Further sequence.


Implicit understanding:
Presupposed basic knowledge?
Considered redundant?


Implicit understanding:
Stones that could be re-established partially because they were previously captured, are of the 7.1.C-type.
Partial re-establishment will result in seki.




Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 X X O . . | X X X O . . | X X X O . . | 5 4 6 O . . | X W W O . . |
$$ | O X X O . . | M X X O . . | 2 X X O . . | O 3 . O . . | . X . O . . |
$$ | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . |
$$ | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
Because White's single stone in the corner was previously captured, White could create permament stones of her "out-of-body", i.e. on board points that were NOT previously occupied by captured stones of her. Thus, her captured stone is of the 7.1.C-type.
Out-of-body creation of 7.1.U-type stones will result in seki.



---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------
$$ | X O O O ? ? |
$$ | 7 X ? O ? ? |
$$ | X O O O ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +--------------[/go]

NOT SHOWN: Further sequence.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #3 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:35 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 2


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | . # W . W X . . |
$$ | # . W . W X . . |
$$ | W W W W X X . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bs: Black's two stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
:wc: White's eight stones are of the 7.1.U-type.



Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 3 X O . O X . . | O M O 4 O X . . | O . O B . X . . |
$$ | X 1 O 2 O X . . | M O O X O X . . | . O O X . X . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . | O O O O X X . . | O O O O X X . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . | X X X X . . . . | X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
Because Black's stones in the corner were previously captured (with :w3:), Black could create (with :b4:) a permament stone of his "out-of-body", i.e. on a board point that was NOT previously occupied by captured stones of his. Thus, his captured stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
The "out-of-body area" can be separated by 7.1.U-type stones from the "capture area".
Out-of-body creation of 7.1.U-type stones will result in seki.



---------------------

Misleading!
J89's comment on L&D Example 2 ALSO describes :b2: as a "newly created stone that cannot be captured".
But :b2: has NOT been played AFTER White captured his stones in the corner.

So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").




Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #4 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:08 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 4


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . B . . B B B @ X . . |
$$ | B B @ @ @ @ @ @ X . . |
$$ | . @ X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . @ X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B @ X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B @ X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B @ X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | @ @ X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:ws: White's stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
:bc: Black's stones are of the 7.1.U-type.



Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | . X 1 2 X X X O X . . | . X X O . 3 . O X . . | . X X O 7 X 5 O X . . |
$$ | X X O O O O O O X . . | X X O O O O O O X . . | X X O O O O O O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X X X X X . . | . O X X X X X X X . . | . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . | 4 O X . . . . . . . . | O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . | X O X . . . . . . . . | . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . | X O X . . . . . . . . | 6 O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X . . . . . . . . | X O X . . . . . . . . | . O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . . . . | O O X . . . . . . . . | O O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . . . . | X X X . . . . . . . . | X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]


---------------------

Misleading!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | ? X X M X X X M X ? ? | ? X X M X X X M X ? ? | ? X X ? X X X ? X ? ? |
$$ | X X M M M M M M X ? ? | X X M M M M M M X ? ? | X X ? ? ? ? ? ? X ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X X X X X ? ? | 8 O X X X X X X X ? ? | W O X X X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]

J89's sequence on L&D Example 4 ends with the position at left.
But NO White stone has been played AFTER Black captured her stones at the top.

So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").



:w8: must be added as an out-of-body stone that cannot be captured!


Implicit understanding:
Because White's stones at the top were previously captured (with :b7:), White could create (with :w8:) a permament stone of her "out-of-body", i.e. on a board point that was NOT previously occupied by captured stones of her. Thus, her captured stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
The "out-of-body area" can be separated by 7.1.U-type stones from the "capture area".
Out-of-body creation of 7.1.U-type stones will result in seki.




Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #5 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:29 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 5


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . @ B B . @ X . . |
$$ | # # O B . @ X . . |
$$ | # # O B B @ X . . |
$$ | O O O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:ws: White's stones are of the 7.1.C-type.
:bs: Black's stones at the left are of the 7.1.C-type.
:bc: Black's stones at the top are of the 7.1.U-type.



Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?
:ws: in the corner already judged of being of 7.1.C-type in L&D Example 1?
Judging :ws: at the top left as an application case for the reader?



---------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------------------------------------------–-------------–-------------------------------------------------+
$$ | 1 O X X ? O X ? ? | X 2 X X ? O X ? ? | 5 O X X ? O X ? ? | X ? X X 7 O X ? ? | X 0 X X X M X ? ? | ? W X X X ? X ? ? |
$$ | X X O X ? O X ? ? | X X O X ? O X ? ? | 4 3 O X ? O X ? ? | O X O X 9 O X ? ? | O X O X X M X ? ? | O ? O X X ? X ? ? |
$$ | X X O X X O X ? ? | X X O X X O X ? ? | ? ? O X X O X ? ? | 6 8 O X X O X ? ? | O O O X X M X ? ? | O O O X X ? X ? ? |
$$ | O O O O O X X ? ? | O O O O O X X ? ? | O O O O O X X ? ? | O O O O O X X ? ? | O O O O O X X ? ? | O O O O O X X ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +--------------------------–--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]


Implicit understanding:
Because White's stones at the top were previously captured (with :b9:), White could create (with :w10:) a permament stone of her "out-of-body", i.e. on a board point that was NOT previously occupied by these captured stones of her. Thus, her captured stones at the top are of the 7.1.C-type.
The "out-of-body area" can be separated by 7.1.U-type stones from the "capture area".
Out-of-body creation of 7.1.U-type stones will result in seki.




Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?
:bs: already judged of being of 7.1.C-type in L&D Example 1?




Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #6 Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:24 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Summary 7.1.C-type stones


Subtype "Complete re-establishment"

Stones that could be re-established in total because they were previously captured.
Total re-establishment will result in territory.

Uttegaeshi => Commentary
Nakade => NOT explicitly mentioned



Subtype "Partial re-establishment"

Stones that could be re-established partially because they were previously captured.
Partial re-establishment will result in seki.

=> L&D Example 1
=> L&D Example 5



Subtype "Out-of-body re-establishment"

Because stones were previously captured, permament stones of that colour could be created "out-of-body", i.e. on board points that were NOT previously occupied by the captured stones.
Out-of-body creation of permanent stones will result in seki.

=> L&D Example 1
=> L&D Example 2
=> L&D Example 4
=> L&D Example 5


The "out-of-body area" can be separated by 7.1.U-type stones from the "capture area". => Re-establishment is considered a GLOBAL issue.

=> L&D Example 2
=> L&D Example 4
=> L&D Example 5



Cause and effect relationship

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 X X O . . | O M M O . . | O . . O . . | O . . O . . |
$$ | O X X O . . | O M M O . . | O 2 . O . . | O B . O . . |
$$ | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . | X O O O . . |
$$ | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . | X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . | . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Capture of stones and re-establishment of stones have to be in a cause-and-effect relationship.

Cause = :w1: = capture
Effect = :b2: = re-establishment


------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | 1 ? X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X ? ? X ? ? |
$$ | O X X X X ? ? |
$$ | O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------[/go]

:b1: is not an effect of any previous capture of Black stones elsewhere on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: elsewhere
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O X X X X ? ? | X 3 X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X ? X ? X ? ? | X X ? X ? X ? ? |
$$ | O X X X X X ? ? | O X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | O O O O O ? ? ? | O O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]

Neither :b1: nor :b3: is an effect of any previous capture of Black stones elsewhere on the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: elsewhere
$$ +--------------------------------
$$ | 1 O 2 O X ? ? | ? ? X ? X ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? | ? ? 4 ? X ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X ? ? | X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +--------------------------------[/go]

Neither :b2: nor :b4: is an effect of any previous capture of Black stones elsewhere on the board.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #7 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:58 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
Commentary


7.2.D-type of ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +----------------
$$ | Z P a Z O . . |
$$ | . Z Z Z O . . |
$$ | Z Z O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +----------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.
:bx: Black's stones in the corner are of the 7.1.D-type.

Black should have played teire at A before the game stopped.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------------
$$ | X O 1 X O . . | X M X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . | . X X X O . . |
$$ | X X O O O . . | X X O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------------------------[/go]



Why :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------
$$ | X O . X O . . | . O 3 X O . . | . O O . O . . |
$$ | 1 X X X O . . | O X X X O . . | O . . . O . . |
$$ | X X O O O . . | X X O O O . . | . . O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . | O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.




7.2.Y-type of ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | # P a . B O . . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . |
$$ | B B O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.
:bs: Black's single stone in the corner is of the 7.1.C-type.
:bc: Black's seven stones are of the 7.1.U-type.

There is no need for Black to play teire at A before the game stopped.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | X O 1 . X O . . | X M X . X O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . | . X X X X O . . |
$$ | X X O O O O . . | X X O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]



Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: / :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass; :w5: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | X O . . X O . . | . O 3 . X O . . | 4 O O 6 X O . . | B . . B B O . . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O . . | O X X X X O . . | O X X X X O . . | . B B B B O . . |
$$ | X X O O O O . . | X X O O O O . . | X X O O O O . . | B B O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.



-------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | X O 1 2 X O ? ? | X ? ? X X O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X X X O ? ? | ? X X X X O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O O O ? ? | X X O O O O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]

Please note that the result would have been the same if White had NOT captured into the ko-shape in the corner.


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-fights during L&D status confirmation.




7.2.Y+R-type of ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | # P a . B O . . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . |
$$ | B B O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's single stone in the upper corner is of the 7.1.D-type.
:bs: Black's single stone in the upper corner is of the 7.1.C-type.
:bc: Black's seven stones in the upper corner are of the 7.1.U-type.
The lower corner is and remains a double-ko seki.

There is no need for Black to play teire at A before the game stopped.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?
Already shown with 7.2.Y-type of ko?




Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: / :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass upper corner; :w7: pass upper corner
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | X O . . X O . . | . O 3 . X O . . | 4 O O 8 X O . . | B . . B B O . . |
$$ | 1 X X X X O . . | O X X X X O . . | O X X X X O . . | . B B B B O . . |
$$ | X X O O O O . . | X X O O O O . . | X X O O O O . . | B B O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . | X X X X X . . . | X X X X X . . . | X X X X X . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . | O O O O X . . . | O O O O X . . . | O O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O . O X X . . | X O . O X X . . | X O . O X X . . | . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . | . X O O O X . . | 5 X O O O X . . | O X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . | X X X O O X . . | X X X O O X . . | X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . X O . O X . . | . X O . O X . . | . X O 6 O X . . | . X . X O X . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There are NO UNREMOVABLE ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.



Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NOT required for :b2: because there is only ONE ko-shape to be re-captured into.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm9 :w9: pass lower corner; :b10: pass lower corner
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | B . . B B O . . | B . . B B O . . |
$$ | . B B B B O . . | . B B B B O . . |
$$ | B B O O O O . . | B B O O O O . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X . . . | X X X X X . . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . . | O O O O X . . . |
$$ | 4 O . O X X . . | X O . O X X . . |
$$ | O X O O O X . . | . X O O O X . . |
$$ | X X X O O X . . | X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . X 3 X O X . . | . X O . O X . . |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]

The L&D-status of Black's stones in the upper corner has already been decided by :b8: .
Nevertheless, the second half of the double-ko cycle in the lower corner is shown explicitly.


Implicit understanding:
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.



Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NEITHER required for :w9: NOR for :b10: because there is only ONE ko-shape each to be re-captured into.



-------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | X O 1 2 X O ? ? | B ? ? B B O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X X X O ? ? | ? B B B B O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O O O ? ? | B B O O O O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X ? ? ? | X X X X X ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? |
$$ | X O ? O X X ? ? | X O ? O X X ? ? |
$$ | ? X O O O X ? ? | ? X O O O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? |
$$ | ? X O ? O X ? ? | ? X O ? O X ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]

Please note that the result would have been the same if White had NOT captured into the ko-shape in the upper corner.


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-fights during L&D status confirmation.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #8 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:59 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 7-1


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | B B B . P X . . |
$$ | . P P P P X . . |
$$ | P P X X X X . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bc: Black's three stones in the corner are of of the 7.1.U-type.
:wx: White's stones in the corner are of the 7.1.D-type.



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w6: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | X X X 2 O X . . | 4 3 . O O X . . | O X 7 O O X . . | . X X M M X . . |
$$ | 1 O O O O X . . | . O O O O X . . | 5 O O O O X . . | X M M M M X . . |
$$ | O O X X X X . . | O O X X X X . . | O O X X X X . . | M M X X X X . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.



-------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm5 :w4: pass; :w6: pass; :w10: pass; :w12: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? X ? O O X ? ? | 1 X 4 O O X ? ? | 5 7 O O O X ? ? | X X M M M X ? ? |
$$ | ? O O O O X ? ? | 3 O O O O X ? ? | 9 O O O O X ? ? | X M M M M X ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | M M X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Please note that the result would have been the same if White had NOT created the ko-shape in the corner.


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-fights during L&D status confirmation.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #9 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:40 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 7-2


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | B B B . P X . . |
$$ | . P P P P X . . |
$$ | P P X X X X . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . |
$$ | X O O . X O . . |
$$ | O . O . X O . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bc: Black's three stones in the corner are of of the 7.1.U-type.
:wx: White's stones in the corner are of the 7.1.D-type.

NO judgement on the L&D status of the lower corner.



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: pass ("upper corner" missing!)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | X X X 2 O X . . | 4 3 . O O X . . | O X 9 O O X . . | . X X M M X . . |
$$ | 1 O O O O X . . | . O O O O X . . | 5 O O O O X . . | X M M M M X . . |
$$ | O O X X X X . . | O O X X X X . . | O O X X X X . . | M M X X X X . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . | X X X X X O . . | X X X X X O . . | X X X X X O . . |
$$ | X O O . X O . . | X O O . X O . . | X O O 6 X O . . | X O O O X O . . |
$$ | O . O . X O . . | O . O . X O . . | O 7 O . X O . . | . X O . X O . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO UNERASABLE ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.



Misleading!
The specification of the corner IS REQUIRED for :w8: (but missing) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 :w10: pass
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | . X X M M X . . | . X X M M X . . |
$$ | X M M M M X . . | X M M M M X . . |
$$ | M M X X X X . . | M M X X X X . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . | X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . | X X X X X O . . |
$$ | X O O O X O . . | X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . X O 1 X O . . | . X . X X O . . |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]

The L&D-status of White's stones in the upper corner has already been decided by :b9: .
Nevertheless, the capture of White's stones in the lower corner is shown explicitly.


Implicit understanding:
An UNERASABLE ko-threat is NOT a means of creating stones of the 7.1.C-type.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #10 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:44 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 8


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . |
$$ | Z O . . . . . |
$$ | . Z O O O . . |
$$ | Z Z Z Z O . . |
$$ | @ Z . Z O . . |
$$ | . W Z W X . . |
$$ | W W W W X . . |
$$ | . W X X X . . |
$$ | W W X . . . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . |
$$ +----------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wc: White's nine stones are of of the 7.1.U-type.
:ws: White's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.
:bx: Black's stones are of the 7.1.D-type.



Why :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . . . . . | O O . . . . . | O O . . . . . | O O . . . . . |
$$ | X O . . . . . | . O . . . . . | . O . . . . . | M O . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X O O O . . | O X O O O . . | O X O O O . . | O M O O O . . |
$$ | X X X X O . . | X X X X O . . | X X X X O . . | M M M M O . . |
$$ | O X 3 X O . . | . X O X O . . | 5 X O X O . . | O M O M O . . |
$$ | 2 O X O X . . | X O . O X . . | X O . O X . . | . O M O X . . |
$$ | O O O O X . . | O O O O X . . | O O O O X . . | O O O O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . | . O X X X . . | . O X X X . . | . O X X X . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . | O O X . . . . | O O X . . . . | O O X . . . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . | X X X . . . . | X X X . . . . | X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.



Misleading!
The specification of the ko-shape IS REQUIRED for :b4: (but missing, probably because it does not matter here) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.




Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass; :b5: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X O ? ? ? ? ? | X O ? ? ? ? ? | X O ? ? ? ? ? | T O ? ? ? ? ? | T O ? ? ? ? ? | ? O ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? X O O O ? ? | ? X O O O ? ? | 4 X O O O ? ? | O X O O O ? ? | O X O O O ? ? | O ? O O O ? ? |
$$ | X X X X O ? ? | X X X X O ? ? | X X X X O ? ? | X X X X O ? ? | X X X X O ? ? | ? ? ? ? O ? ? |
$$ | O X 2 X O ? ? | M X O X O ? ? | M X O X O ? ? | M X O X O ? ? | 6 X O X O ? ? | W ? O ? O ? ? |
$$ | 1 O X O X ? ? | X O T O X ? ? | X O T O X ? ? | X O T O X ? ? | X O T O X ? ? | ? O ? O X ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? | O O O O X ? ? | O O O O X ? ? | O O O O X ? ? | O O O O X ? ? | O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.




=============================================
=============================================

MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +----------------
$$ | , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O , , , , , |
$$ | Z O , , , , , |
$$ | , Z O O O , , |
$$ | Z Z Z Z O , , |
$$ | @ Z , Z O , , |
$$ | , W Z W X , , |
$$ | W W W W X , , |
$$ | , W X X X , , |
$$ | W W X , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------[/go]

This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.



Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

First attempt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , |
$$ | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , |
$$ | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , |
$$ | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , |
$$ | O X 2 X O , , | , X O X O , , | 6 X O X O , , | O X , X O , , |
$$ | 1 O X O X , , | X O , O X , , | X O 5 O X , , | , O X O X , , |
$$ | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER White's single stone in the double-ko has been captured, NO (new) PERMANENT White stone can be played, due to J89's (initial version) double-ko cycle.


-----------------------------------------

Second attempt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , |
$$ | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | 4 O , , , , , | W O , , , , , |
$$ | . X O O O , , | 2 X O O O , , | O X O O O , , | W X O O O , , |
$$ | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , |
$$ | O X . X O , , | M X , X O , , | M X , X O , , | M X , X O , , |
$$ | 1 O X O X , , | X O X O X , , | X , X , X , , | X , X , X , , |
$$ | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | , , , , X , , | , , , , X , , |
$$ | . O X X X , , | 3 O X X X , , | X , X X X , , | X , X X X , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | , , X , , , , | , , X , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER White's single stone in the double-ko has been captured (with :b1:), (new) PERMANENT White stones could be played (with :w2: and :w4:).

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #11 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:28 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 11


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------------
$$ | . X P . P . P X . . . |
$$ | . X X P P P P X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . . . . |
$$ | O O X O . O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . O X . . |
$$ +------------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's stones at the top are of the 7.1.D-type.

NO judgement on the L&D status of the double-ko seki at the bottom.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass (missing: "at top")
$$ +------------------------------------------------
$$ | . X O 1 O 5 O X . . . | . X M X M X M X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . | . X X M M M M X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . . . | . . X X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . | . O O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . . . . | . O X X O O X . . . . |
$$ | O O X O 3 O X X X . . | O O X . X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O O X . . | X X X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | X . X 2 X O . O X . . | X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO UNERASABLE ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There is no double-ko during L&D status confirmation.



Misleading!
The specification of the ko-shape IS REQUIRED for :w4: (but missing) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w6: pass; :b7: pass[/color]
$$ +------------------------------------------------
$$ | . X M X M X M X . . . | . X M X M X M X . . . |
$$ | . X X M M M M X . . . | . X X M M M M X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X X . . . | . . X X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X X X . . . . | . O O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . . . . | . O X X O O X . . . . |
$$ | O O X . X O X X X . . | O O X . X O X X X . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O O X . . | X X X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | X . X O . O . O X . . | X . X O . O . O X . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------[/go]

The L&D-status of White's stones in the upper corner has already been decided by :b5: .
Nevertheless, two passes for the remaining ko-shapes at the bottom are played explicitly.
Contrary to the commentary (7.2.Y+R-type of ko), recapturing into the double-ko is left out here.


Implicit understanding:
An UNERASABLE ko-threat is NOT a means of creating stones of the 7.1.C-type.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #12 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:27 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 12


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +------------------
$$ | @ . W . B O . . |
$$ | B W W . B O . . |
$$ | B B B B B O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bc: Black's stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:wc: White's three stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:ws: White's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: pass
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | O 2 O 4 X O . . | . B . B B O . . |
$$ | X O O 1 X O . . | B . . . B O . . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . | B B B B B O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.




Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass; :b5: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | O 1 O . X O . . | 4 X O 6 X O . . | O . W O . O . . |
$$ | X O O 3 X O . . | X O O X X O . . | . W W . . O . . |
$$ | X X X X X O . . | X X X X X O . . | . . . . . O . . |
$$ | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . | O O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . | . . . . . . . . |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.




Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass; :b3: pass; :b5: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | O 1 O ? X O ? ? | 4 X O ? X O ? ? | O 6 O ? X O ? ? | W W O ? X O ? ? |
$$ | X O O ? X O ? ? | X O O ? X O ? ? | X O O ? X O ? ? | X O O ? X O ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X O ? ? | X X X X X O ? ? | X X X X X O ? ? | X X X X X O ? ? |
$$ | O O O O O O ? ? | O O O O O O ? ? | O O O O O O ? ? | O O O O O O ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]


Implicit understanding:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #13 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:15 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 16


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | P P X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . P X X X . . . . . |
$$ | P P P P X X X O . . |
$$ | # P . P P P X O . . |
$$ | . B P B B B O O . . |
$$ | B B B B . B O . . . |
$$ | P P P B B B O . . . |
$$ | . P X O O O O . . . |
$$ | P P X X X X X . . . |
$$ | . P X . . . . . . . |
$$ | P X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | P X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . P X . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's stones are of of the 7.1.D-type.
:bc: Black's twelve stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:bs: Black's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Implicit APPLICATION:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.
An UNERASABLE ko-threat is NOT a means of creating stones of the 7.1.C-type.




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass; :w8: pass; :w10: pass (lower ko); :w12: pass; :w14: pass; :b15: pass; :w16: pass; :w18: pass
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | M M X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | 9 O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X M X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | M M M M X X X O ? ? |
$$ | X O ? O O O X O ? ? | X O ? O O O X O ? ? | X O 7 O O O X O ? ? | ? O X O O O X O ? ? | 7 O X O O O X O ? ? | X M X M M M X O ? ? |
$$ | ? X O X X X O O ? ? | ? X O X X X O O ? ? | 6 X O X X X O O ? ? | O X ? X X X O O ? ? | O X 3 X X X O O ? ? | M X X X X X O O ? ? |
$$ | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | ? ? ? X X X O ? ? ? | M M M X X X O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | 1 O X O O O O ? ? ? | X ? X O O O O ? ? ? | X M X O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | ? ? X X X X X ? ? ? | M M X X X X X ? ? ? |
$$ | 3 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 9 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X M X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 4 X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | M X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 5 X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | 1 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X M X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]

Blueprint is the sequence in the commentary (7.2.Y+R-type of ko).



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: pass; :w5: pass; :w9: pass; :w11: pass; :w13: pass; :w15: pass; :b16: pass; :w17: pass; :w19: pass
$$ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | 0 O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | O O O O X X X O ? ? | ? ? ? ? X X X O ? ? |
$$ | X O 2 O O O X O ? ? | M O X O O O X O ? ? | M O X O O O X O ? ? | 8 O X O O O X O ? ? | B ? X ? ? ? X O ? ? |
$$ | 1 X O X X X O O ? ? | O X T X X X O O ? ? | O X T X X X O O ? ? | O X 4 X X X O O ? ? | ? X X X X X O O ? ? |
$$ | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X ? X O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X X X O ? ? ? | ? ? ? X X X O ? ? ? | ? ? ? X X X O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | 2 O X O O O O ? ? ? | X ? X O O O O ? ? ? | X ? X O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | O O X X X X X ? ? ? | ? ? X X X X X ? ? ? | ? ? X X X X X ? ? ? |
$$ | 6 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 0 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 7 X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 8 X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | 4 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]

AFTER Black's single stone in the double-ko has been captured (with :w1:), it could be re-established (with :b18:).

Alternatively, Black could be content with having placed a (new) PERMANENT stone with :b4: .



=============================================
=============================================

MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------+
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | W W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , W X X X , , , , , |
$$ | W W W W X X X O , , |
$$ | # W , W W W X O , , |
$$ | t B P B B B O O , , |
$$ | B B B B t B O , , , |
$$ | W W W B B B O , , , |
$$ | t W X O O O O , , , |
$$ | W W X X X X X , , , |
$$ | , W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | @ X , , , , , , , , |
$$ | @ X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , P X , , , , , , , |
$$ +---------------------+[/go]

This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.
Please note that the points T are territory!



Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass upper ko; :w5: pass; :w8: pass upper ko; :b9: pass
$$ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | W W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , W X X X , , , , , |
$$ | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | W W W W X X X O , , |
$$ | X O 3 O O O X O , , | , O X O O O X O , , | 7 O X O O O X O , , | X O , O O O X O , , | X W , W W W X O , , |
$$ | 2 X O X X X O O , , | O X , X X X O O , , | O X 6 X X X O O , , | , X O X X X O O , , | , X O X X X O O , , |
$$ | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X , X O , , , |
$$ | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O X X X O , , , | W W W X X X O , , , |
$$ | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , W X O O O O , , , |
$$ | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | W W X X X X X , , , |
$$ | , O X , , , , , , , | , O X , , , , , , , | , O X , , , , , , , | , O X , , , , , , , | , W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X X , , , , , , , | O X X , , , , , , , | O X X , , , , , , , | O X X , , , , , , , | O X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | 1 O X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , |
$$ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]




Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , |
$$ | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , |
$$ | X O , O O O X O , , | , O , O O O X O , , | , O , O O O X O , , |
$$ | 2 X O X X X O O , , | O X O X X X O O , , | O , O , , , O O , , |
$$ | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X 4 X O , , , | , , , , W , O , , , |
$$ | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O , , , O , , , |
$$ | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , |
$$ | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , |
$$ | 3 O X , , , , , , , | X O X , , , , , , , | X O X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X , , , , , , , , | M X , , , , , , , , | M X , , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X X , , , , , , , | M X X , , , , , , , | M X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | 1 O X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]

The capture of White's two stones at the left (with :b3:) enabled a (new) PERMANENT White stone (with :w4:).



Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , |
$$ | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , | O O O O X X X O , , |
$$ | X O , O O O X O , , | M O , O O O X O , , | M O , O O O X O , , | M O , O O O X O , , |
$$ | 1 X O X X X O O , , | O X O X X X O O , , | O , O , , , O O , , | O , O , , , O O , , |
$$ | X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X 3 X O , , , | , , , , O , O , , , | , , , , O , O , , , |
$$ | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O X X X O , , , | O O O , , , O , , , | O O O , , , O , , , |
$$ | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , | , O X O O O O , , , |
$$ | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , | O O X X X X X , , , |
$$ | , O X , , , , , , , | 4 O X , , , , , , , | X O X , , , , , , , | , O X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , | 5 X , , , , , , , , | O X , , , , , , , , |
$$ | O X X , , , , , , , | O X X , , , , , , , | 6 X X , , , , , , , | B X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | , O X , , , , , , , | 2 O X , , , , , , , | X , X , , , , , , , | B , X , , , , , , , |
$$ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+[/go]

The capture of Black's single stone at the left edge (with :w1:) enabled (new) PERMANENT Black stones (with :b2: and :b6:).

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:42 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 17


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X . . . . . . . . . | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | P P X . . . . . . . . . | P P X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . P X X X . . . . . . . | ? P X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | P P P P X . . . . . . . | P P P P X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X P . P X O O O O . . . | # P ? P X O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | . X P X O O X X O . . . | ? B P B O O B B O ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X X . X O . . . | B B B B B B . B O ? ? ? |
$$ | P P P X O X X X O . . . | P P P B O B B B O ? ? ? |
$$ | . P X O O O O O O X . . | ? P X O O O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | # P X X X X X X X X . . | # P X X X X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | # P P P X X . . . . . . | # P P P X X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | # . P . P X . . . . . . | # ? P ? P X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:wx: White's stones are of of the 7.1.D-type.
:bc: Black's 15 stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:bs: Black's four stones at the left edge are of the 7.1.C-type.

Please note that there is NO explicit status for Black's stones in the double-ko in J89's comment to this example.



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Implicit APPLICATION:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.
An UNERASABLE ko-threat is NOT a means of creating stones of the 7.1.C-type.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: pass; :w6: pass; :w10: pass; :w12: pass; :w14: pass; :w16: pass; :w18: pass; :w20: pass; :w22: pass; :b23: pass; :w24: pass; :w26: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | M M X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | 7 O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | X M X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | M M M M X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X O ? O X O O O O ? ? | X O 5 O X O O O O ? ? | ? O X O X O O O O ? ? | ? O X O X O O O O ? ? | 5 O X O X O O O O ? ? | X M X M X O O O O ? ? |
$$ | ? X O X O O X X O ? ? | 4 X O X O O X X O ? ? | O X ? X O O X X O ? ? | O X ? X O O X X O ? ? | O X 1 X O O X X O ? ? | M X X X O O X X O ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? |
$$ | O O O X O X X X O ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? | ? ? ? X O X X X O ? ? | M M M X O X X X O ? ? |
$$ | ? O X O O O O O O X ? | 8 O X O O O O O O X ? | O O X O O O O O O X ? | O O X O O O O O O X ? | ? ? X O O O O O O X ? | M M X O O O O O O X ? |
$$ | X O X X X X X X X X ? | X O X X X X X X X X ? | 4 O X X X X X X X X ? | O O X X X X X X X X ? | ? ? X X X X X X X X ? | M M X X X X X X X X ? |
$$ | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? | 9 O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? | 9 O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? | X ? ? ? X X ? ? ? ? ? | X M M M X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X ? O 1 O X ? ? ? ? ? | X 7 O X 3 X ? ? ? ? ? | 1 3 O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | 5 7 O X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X ? X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X M X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Blueprint is the sequence in the commentary (7.2.Y+R-type of ko).



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | M O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | M O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | 1 X O X O O X X O ? ? ? | O X O X O O X X O ? ? ? | O ? O ? O O ? ? O ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X X X 3 X O ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? O ? O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O X O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X O ? ? ? O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X O O O O O O X ? ? | ? O X O O O O O O X ? ? | ? O X O O O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | X O X X X X X X X X ? ? | X O X X X X X X X X ? ? | X O X X X X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X ? O 2 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? O X 4 X ? ? ? ? ? ? | X ? O B B X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER Black's single stone in the double-ko has been captured (with :w1:), Black could play (new) PERMANENT stones (with :b2: and :b4:).

Alternatively, Black could have captured into the double-ko with :b2:, reverting to the sequence for :wx: above.


--------------------------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? O X X X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O O X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | X O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? | X O ? O X O O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? X O X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X O X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X O X O O X X O ? ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? ? | X X X X X X ? X O ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O X O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? ? | O O O X O X X X O ? ? ? |
$$ | 1 O X O O O O O O X ? ? | O O X O O O O O O X ? ? | O O X O O O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | X O X X X X X X X X ? ? | M O X X X X X X X X ? ? | M O X X X X X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | M O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? | M O O O X X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X 3 O 2 O X ? ? ? ? ? ? | M O O X 4 X ? ? ? ? ? ? | M ? O X B X ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER Black's three stones in the corner have been captured (with :w3:), Black could play a (new) PERMANENT stone (with :b4:).

Alternatively, Black could have played into White's eye in the corner with :b4:, reverting to the sequence for :wx: above.



=============================================
=============================================

MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | W W X , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , W X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | W W W W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | # W , W X O O O O , , , |
$$ | t B P B O O B B O , , , |
$$ | B B B B B B t B O , , , |
$$ | W W W B O B B B O , , , |
$$ | , W X O O O O O O X , , |
$$ | # W X X X X X X X X , , |
$$ | # W W W X X , , , , , , |
$$ | # , W , P X , , , , , , |
$$ +--------------------------[/go]

This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.
Please note that the points T are territory!



Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w4: pass upper ko; :b5: pass; :w8: pass upper ko; :b9: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , , , | X X X , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , , , | O O X , , , , , , , , , | W W X , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , , , | , O X X X , , , , , , , | , W X X X , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O O O X , , , , , , , | O O O O X , , , , , , , | O O O O X , , , , , , , | O O O O X , , , , , , , | W W W W X , , , , , , , |
$$ | X O 3 O X O O O O , , , | , O X O X O O O O , , , | 7 O X O X O O O O , , , | X O , O X O O O O , , , | X W , W X O O O O , , , |
$$ | 2 X O X O O X X O , , , | O X , X O O X X O , , , | O X 6 X O O X X O , , , | , X O X O O X X O , , , | , X O X O O X X O , , , |
$$ | X X X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X X X , X O , , , | X X X X X X , X O , , , |
$$ | O O O X O X X X O , , , | O O O X O X X X O , , , | O O O X O X X X O , , , | O O O X O X X X O , , , | W W W X O X X X O , , , |
$$ | , O X O O O O O O X , , | , O X O O O O O O X , , | , O X O O O O O O X , , | , O X O O O O O O X , , | , W X O O O O O O X , , |
$$ | X O X X X X X X X X , , | X O X X X X X X X X , , | X O X X X X X X X X , , | X O X X X X X X X X , , | X W X X X X X X X X , , |
$$ | X O O O X X , , , , , , | X O O O X X , , , , , , | X O O O X X , , , , , , | X O O O X X , , , , , , | X W W W X X , , , , , , |
$$ | X , O 1 O X , , , , , , | X , O X , X , , , , , , | X , O X , X , , , , , , | X , O X , X , , , , , , | X , W X , X , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #15 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:39 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 18


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------------------------------------
$$ | . W . Z O Z O . . . . | ? W ? Z W Z O ? ? ? ? |
$$ | W Z Z Z O Z O O . . . | W Z Z Z W Z O O ? ? ? |
$$ | . Z O O O Z Z O O . . | ? Z W W W Z Z O O ? ? |
$$ | Z Z O O . O Z Z O . . | Z Z W W ? @ Z Z O ? ? |
$$ | O O O . O Z . Z O . . | W W W ? W Z ? Z O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O Z . Z Z O . . | X X W W Z ? Z Z O ? ? |
$$ | . X X O O Z Z O . . . | ? X X W W Z Z O ? ? ? |
$$ | . . X X X O O O . . . | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bx: Black's stones are of the 7.1.D-type.
:wc: White's two stones in the corner and 15 stones in the double-ko are of the 7.1.U-type.
:ws: White's single stone in the double-ko is of the 7.1.C-type.

Please note that there is NO explicit status for White's stones in the double-ko in J89's comment to this example.



Why :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Implicit APPLICATION:
There are NO ko-threats during L&D status confirmation.
Capturing into a single ko-shape allows playing two moves in a row locally.
There is NO double-ko during L&D status confirmation.
An UNERASABLE ko-threat is NOT a means of creating stones of the 7.1.C-type.



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass; :b8: pass; :b10: pass; :b14: pass; :b16: pass; :b18: pass; :b20: pass; :w21: pass; :b22: pass; :b24: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O 3 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 9 5 2 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 3 5 X X O X O ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? O X O ? ? ? ? | O O M M O M O ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 1 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 7 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O ? ? ? O X O O ? ? ? | O M M M O M O O ? ? ? |
$$ | 4 X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? ? O O O X X O O ? ? | M M O O O M M O O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? O X X O ? ? | X X O O 6 O X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? | ? ? O O X 3 X X O ? ? | M M O O ? O M M O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X 5 X O ? ? | O O O ? O M O M O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O X ? X X O ? ? | X X O O X 7 X X O ? ? | X X O O T O X X O ? ? | X X O O 9 O X X O ? ? | X X O O O O M M O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O M M O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]

Blueprint is the sequence in the commentary (7.2.Y+R-type of ko).



Why :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: :wc: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?




Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

NOT SHOWN.


Implicit understanding:
Considered redundant?



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? O ? X O X O ? ? ? ? | ? O ? X O X O ? ? ? ? | ? O ? X O X O ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? X O O O X X O O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O 1 O X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O X 2 X X O ? ? | X X O O T O X X O ? ? | X X O O ? W X X O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------–-------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER White's single stone in the double-ko has been captured (with :b1:), White could play a (new) PERMANENT stone (with :w2:).

Alternatively, White could connect in the corner with :w4:, reverting to the sequence for :bx: above.



=============================================
=============================================

MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------------
$$ | , W , B W B O , , , , |
$$ | W B B B W B O O , , , |
$$ | , B W W W B B O O , , |
$$ | B B W W , P B B O , , |
$$ | W W W , W B , B O , , |
$$ | X X W W Z , B X O , , |
$$ | , X X W W B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------–-[/go]

This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.



Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: pass; :w5: pass; :b8: pass; :w9: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , B O B O , , , , |
$$ | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O B B B O B O O , , , |
$$ | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , B O O O B B O O , , |
$$ | X X O O 2 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X 7 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | B B O O , O B B O , , |
$$ | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O B , B O , , |
$$ | X X O O X 3 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | X X O O 6 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X , B B O , , |
$$ | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)


Last edited by Cassandra on Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #16 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:13 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 25


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------------------------
$$ | . B . Z W X . . | ? B ? # W X ? ? |
$$ | B B B W W X . . | B B B W W X ? ? |
$$ | P B W . W X . . | @ B W ? W X ? ? |
$$ | . W W W W X . . | ? W W W W X ? ? |
$$ | W W X X X X . . | W W X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X . . . . . | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | . . . . . . . . | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------–-------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bc: Black's five stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:wc: White's eleven stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:bs: Black's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.
:ws: White's single stone is of the 7.1.C-type.


Misleading!
J89's comment on L&D Example 25 should be an INCORRECT follow-up of the correct (!) initial version.


:bx: Black's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.
:wx: White's single stone is of the 7.1.D-type.




=============================================
=============================================

Why :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: :bx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: pass; :b4: pass; :w7: pass; :b8: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , X 1 X O X , , | , X O , O X , , | , X O 6 O X , , | , X , X O X , , |
$$ | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , |
$$ | O X O , O X , , | , X O , O X , , | 5 X O , O X , , | O X O , O X , , |
$$ | 2 O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | , O O O O X , , |
$$ | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------–[/go]



Why :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: :wx: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , X 2 X O X , , | , X O , O X , , | , X O 5 O X , , | , X , X O X , , |
$$ | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , | X X X O O X , , |
$$ | O X O , O X , , | , X O , O X , , | 6 X O , O X , , | O X O , O X , , |
$$ | 1 O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | X O O O O X , , | , O O O O X , , |
$$ | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , | O O X X X X , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , | X X X , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , |
$$ +-----------------------------------------------------------------------–[/go]



=============================================

=============================================

Why :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: pass (for ko); :b4: pass (NOT for ko)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? X 1 X O X ? ? | ? X O M O X ? ? | ? X O M O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | T X O ? O X ? ? | ? X O ? O X ? ? |
$$ | 2 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | B O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]



Why :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: :ws: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? X 2 X O X ? ? | ? X O T O X ? ? | ? X W ? O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? |
$$ | 1 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]



=============================================
=============================================

ERRONEOUS comment???

:b1: The comment explains why both single stones are "dead" (i.e. due to the double-ko cycles displayed above).
:b2: The comment claims these single stones being "seki stones".


However, this is a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS, because


:w1: The legal text defines "alive stones".
:w2: The legal text defines "eye".
:w3: The legal text defines "dame" as all empty points other than "eyes".
:w4: The legal text defines "seki stones" as "ALIVE stones" that have (i.e. are neighboured to) "dame".


---------------------------

:b1: The comment claims that these single stones must not be taken off the board as captives, because they are NEIGHBOURED to "dame", and NOT NEIGHBOURED to (opponent's) "territory".
:b2: The comment claims that these single stones become "seki stones" as they are (what is a contradiction to the legal text, see above).


However, this does NOT follow the mechanism that is defined in the legal text!


:w1: The legal text defines "territory" as the "eyes" of "alive stones", which are NOT "seki stones".
:w2: The legal text defines stones that can be taken off the board as they are as captives, as being INSIDE (opponent's) "territory".

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #17 Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:43 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
L&D Example 23


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | . P . P P B . P X . . . |
$$ | P B P . P B . P X X . . |
$$ | . B B P P B B B O X . . |
$$ | B . B B B O O O O X . . |
$$ | P P B O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | P B B O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B B O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------------------[/go]

J89's judgement of L&D:

:bc: Black's stones are of the 7.1.U-type.
:wx: White's stones are of the 7.1.D-type.


However, ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b9: pass-for-ko
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 4 O 5 O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 7 6 X O O X ? O X ? ? ? | 0 O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | O O ? W W X ? W X ? ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | 8 X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X W ? W X ? W X X ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X X O X ? ? | 3 X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X W W X X X O X ? ? |
$$ | X 1 X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 2 ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

... J89's intended result CANNOT be reached with the already known procedures!
White's stones at the upper edge would remain uncapturable, due to the cycle in the corner.




Implicit understanding:
The "sending three, returning two" cycle in the corner is considered inappropriate for establishing Chôsei for White's stones at the top.


The commentary to this example refers to the purpose of the game of Go, stated in Article 1 of the legal text, which is "a competition for more or less territory".
Article 10, Clause 2 clarifies that prisoners reduce opponent's territory.

During actual PLAY, the cycle in the corner would not run forever, as Black benefits by one surplus prisoner per pass. This cycle is clearly DISADVANTAGEOUS for White.

However, during STATUS CONFIRMATION, captured stones do NOT count.
Nevertheless, and similar to implicit Japanese understanding that the assessment of the L&D-status of a group should not depend on a ko-fight, it seems to be implicit Japanese understanding that the assessment of the L&D-status of a group should not depend on such "fake" (with regard to actual PLAY) Chôsei.

This implies that we could introduce a "pass-for-Chôsei" as an indication that the IMMEDIATE repetion of such "fake" cycle is forbidden.
Similar to "pass-for-ko" being an indicator that the IMMEDIATE recapture into a ko-shape is forbidden.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 :w10: "pass-for-Chôsei"; :w12: pass-for-ko; :w14: pass-for-ko"; :w16: pass; :w18: pass
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | 1 O 3 O O X 9 O X ? ? ? |
$$ | O X O 5 O X 7 O X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O ? X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |[/go]

So, Black could capture all of White's stones at the top.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------
$$ | 1 O . O O X . O X . . . |
$$ | O X O . O X . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X X X O X . . |
$$ | X . X X X O O O O X . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +--------------------------[/go]

As mentioned in the commentary, a White move in the corner during actual play would turn the position into a seki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm2 :w9: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | O O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | O O 5 O O X ? O X ? ? ? | a 6 X O O X ? O X ? ? ? | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? | ? O ? O O X ? O X ? ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | O X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | 7 X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | X X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? | X X O ? O X ? O X X ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X X O X ? ? | 3 X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? | X X X O O X X X O X ? ? |
$$ | X 1 X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? | X X X X X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 2 4 X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 0 1 X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | 9 X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X X O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | X X O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | O O O ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

Thereafter, Black could capture nine White stones (with :b2:, :b6:, :b10:, :b12:), while White would capture one Black stones (with :w7:) in return.

Please note that in the status confirmation, Black would be unable to play :b8: at A, as he thereafter lacked the time for "pass-for-ko" enabling him to recapture in the corner.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #18 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:27 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 181
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 26
Rank: OGS 6K
GD Posts: 56
KGS: CDavis7M
OGS: CDavis7M
Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 2
...
Misleading!
J89's comment on L&D Example 2 ALSO describes :b2: as a "newly created stone that cannot be captured".
But :b2: has NOT been played AFTER White captured his stones in the corner.

So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").
Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 4
...
J89's sequence on L&D Example 4 ends with the position at left.
But NO White stone has been played AFTER Black captured her stones at the top.
So this should be an UNADAPTED RELIC of the initial version ("if capturing ... enables ..."; i.e. "if THE PROCESS of capturing ... enables ...").[/color]
There seems to be an implicit misunderstanding. I don't read any requirement in Article 7-1 (or elsewhere) of the Japanese Rules for the new stones that cannot be captured to have been placed after the stones have been captured. Where in the rules do you think it says so? If anything, Example 1 shows new stones that cannot be captured that are only placed after stones are captured and Example 4 shows new uncapturable White stones that are only placed before the other White stones are captured. So the interpretation of the Rules should allow for the new uncapturable stones to be placed before and/or after the capturing. This is a valid interpretation of "又は取られても新たに相手方に取られない石を生じうる石".

--------------------

Cassandra wrote:
Commentary
...
7.2.Y+R-type of ko
...
Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NOT required for :b2: because there is only ONE ko-shape to be re-captured into.

...
Misleading!
The specification of the corner is NEITHER required for :w9: NOR for :b10: because there is only ONE ko-shape each to be re-captured into.

...
L&D Example 7-2
Misleading!
The specification of the corner IS REQUIRED for :w8: (but missing) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.

...
L&D Example 8
...
Misleading!
The specification of the ko-shape IS REQUIRED for :b4: (but missing, probably because it does not matter here) because there are TWO ko-shapes to be re-captured into.

If failing to specify the ko wouldn't change the result then by definition the Examples are not "misleading" because there is no wrong idea or impression that can be taken. I'm not sure what you were trying to do there.

--------------------

Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 8
...
MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???
...
First attempt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass; :w4: pass; :b7: pass; :w8: pass
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , | O O , , , , , |
$$ | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , | X O , , , , , |
$$ | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , | , X O O O , , |
$$ | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , | X X X X O , , |
$$ | O X 2 X O , , | , X O X O , , | 6 X O X O , , | O X , X O , , |
$$ | 1 O X O X , , | X O , O X , , | X O 5 O X , , | , O X O X , , |
$$ | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , | O O O O X , , |
$$ | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , | , O X X X , , |
$$ | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , | O O X , , , , |
$$ | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , | X X X , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------[/go]

AFTER White's single stone in the double-ko has been captured, NO (new) PERMANENT White stone can be played, due to J89's (initial version) double-ko cycle.
Maybe there is no requirement for the uncapturable stone to be placed after the capturing? Maybe it is enough to show that the new stones retaking the kos before capturing Black cannot be captured. The same goes for Example 16.

--------------------

Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 18
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b2: pass; :b8: pass; :b10: pass; :b14: pass; :b16: pass; :b18: pass; :b20: pass; :w21: pass; :b22: pass; :b24: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O 3 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 9 5 2 X O X O ? ? ? ? | 3 5 X X O X O ? ? ? ? | O O ? ? O X O ? ? ? ? | O O M M O M O ? ? ? ? |
$$ | O X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 1 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | 7 X X X O X O O ? ? ? | O ? ? ? O X O O ? ? ? | O M M M O M O O ? ? ? |
$$ | 4 X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | X X O O O X X O O ? ? | ? ? O O O X X O O ? ? | M M O O O M M O O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O ? O X X O ? ? | X X O O 6 O X X O ? ? | X X O O X M X X O ? ? | ? ? O O X 3 X X O ? ? | M M O O ? O M M O ? ? |
$$ | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X ? X O ? ? | O O O ? O X 5 X O ? ? | O O O ? O M O M O ? ? |
$$ | X X O O X ? X X O ? ? | X X O O X 7 X X O ? ? | X X O O T O X X O ? ? | X X O O 9 O X X O ? ? | X X O O O O M M O ? ? |
$$ | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O X X O ? ? ? | ? X X O O M M O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? | ? ? X X X O O O ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]

...
MISTAKE in J89's INITIAL version???


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------------
$$ | , W , B W B O , , , , |
$$ | W B B B W B O O , , , |
$$ | , B W W W B B O O , , |
$$ | B B W W , P B B O , , |
$$ | W W W , W B , B O , , |
$$ | X X W W Z , B X O , , |
$$ | , X X W W B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------–-[/go]

This diagram shows the CORRECT judgement when applying J89's initial version of the L&D status confirmation.

Why :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: :bc: ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :b4: pass; :w5: pass; :b8: pass; :w9: pass
$$ +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$$ | 1 O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , X O X O , , , , | O O , B O B O , , , , |
$$ | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O X X X O X O O , , , | O B B B O B O O , , , |
$$ | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , X O O O X X O O , , | , B O O O B B O O , , |
$$ | X X O O 2 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X 7 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | B B O O , O B B O , , |
$$ | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O X , X O , , | O O O , O B , B O , , |
$$ | X X O O X 3 X X O , , | X X O O , O X X O , , | X X O O 6 O X X O , , | X X O O X , X X O , , | X X O O X , B B O , , |
$$ | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O X X O , , , | , X X O O B B O , , , |
$$ | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , | , , X X X O O O , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , | , , , , , , , , , , , |
$$ +----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------–-[/go]

I can't even begin to guess what you are trying to do with Example 18 but this has no relation to the Rules or the other examples. The point of Example 18 is that 隅の曲り四目, 両劫ゼキ, and セキ崩れ are already defined and no further assessment is needed. If the Life and Death of the position in Example 18 were to be assessed according to the other Examples, I think it that this position having Bent 4 and Double Ko would work similar to the Bent 4 and Double Ko Example in Article 7-2 where the ko passed for is the ko of the stones being assessed (Bent 4). Then the double ko seki would collapse.
Image

--------------------

Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 25
...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: pass (for ko); :w4: pass (NOT for ko)
$$ +------------------------------------------------------
$$ | ? X 2 X O X ? ? | ? X O T O X ? ? | ? X W ? O X ? ? |
$$ | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? | X X X O O X ? ? |
$$ | O X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? | M X O ? O X ? ? |
$$ | 1 O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? | X O O O O X ? ? |
$$ | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? | O O X X X X ? ? |
$$ | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? | X X X ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? |
$$ +------------------------------------------------------[/go]


ERRONEOUS comment???

:b1: The comment explains why both single stones are "dead" (i.e. due to the double-ko cycles displayed above).
:b2: The comment claims these single stones being "seki stones".


However, this is a CONTRADICTION IN TERMS, because


:w1: The legal text defines "alive stones".
:w2: The legal text defines "eye".
:w3: The legal text defines "dame" as all empty points other than "eyes".
:w4: The legal text defines "seki stones" as "ALIVE stones" that have (i.e. are neighboured to) "dame".

---------------------------

:b1: The comment claims that these single stones must not be taken off the board as captives, because they are NEIGHBOURED to "dame", and NOT NEIGHBOURED to (opponent's) "territory".
:b2: The comment claims that these single stones become "seki stones" as they are (what is a contradiction to the legal text, see above).


However, this does NOT follow the mechanism that is defined in the legal text!


:w1: The legal text defines "territory" as the "eyes" of "alive stones", which are NOT "seki stones".
:w2: The legal text defines stones that can be taken off the board as they are as captives, as being INSIDE (opponent's) "territory".
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. The single black and white ko-stones are dead stones. This is why points "a" and "b" are dame (they are not surrounded by living stones of one player). The fact that a and b are dame was already discussed in the comments to Article 8. Points a and b being dame is why the 6 black stones (including the single black stone) are living seki stones. Yes, the single black ko-stone (黒一子) is deemed a dead stone when its life and death is assessed, but the 6 black stones (黒六子) including the one ko-stone are deemed alive when their life and death is assessed. 黒六子 have dame and so are seki stones. This is clear to me when reading it in Japanese. There is no discrepancy here. I don't know what rules you are reading.

---------------------------

Cassandra wrote:
L&D Example 23
...
J89's intended result CANNOT be reached with the already known procedures!
White's stones at the upper edge would remain uncapturable, due to the cycle in the corner.[/color]
To me, this is a definition that is telling the players to play these moves in the game, just as is done with other board positions. Also, from my review of the Life and Death examples, White would not connect.

_________________
㋷ ㋣ ㋢

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #19 Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:30 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1199
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 136
Rank: German 1 Kyu
CDavis7M wrote:
There seems to be an implicit misunderstanding. I don't read any requirement in Article 7-1 (or elsewhere) of the Japanese Rules for the new stones that cannot be captured to have been placed after the stones have been captured.

Just to give you a comparable example to think about:

"Only if this move is played now, your group that is currently caught in a semeai will be alive."
"Only after this move is played now, your group that is currently caught in a semeai will be alive."

Cause: A move is played.
Effect: A group is alive.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: http://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyoron #120 (still unresolved by professionals, maybe solved by four amateurs)

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #20 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:19 am 
Tengen

Posts: 5497
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 744
I disagree with your implicit understandings related to ko because these are not the only possible understandings.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group