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 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #21 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:24 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
I disagree with your implicit understandings related to ko because these are not the only possible understandings.

No problem at all!

Understanding A can lead to consistent results, understanding B can lead to consistent results also. As long as these results comply with the intended results of J89's L&D examples, everything is OK.

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 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #22 Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:11 am 
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CDavis7M wrote:
The single black and white ko-stones are dead stones. This is why points "a" and "b" are dame (they are not surrounded by living stones of one player). The fact that a and b are dame was already discussed in the comments to Article 8. Points a and b being dame is why the 6 black stones (including the single black stone) are living seki stones. Yes, the single black ko-stone (黒一子) is deemed a dead stone when its life and death is assessed, but the 6 black stones (黒六子) including the one ko-stone are deemed alive when their life and death is assessed. 黒六子 have dame and so are seki stones. This is clear to me when reading it in Japanese. There is no discrepancy here. I don't know what rules you are reading.

You should not believe everything that is written in J89.

This reference to the shape of a "double-ko seki" was one of the very clear mistakes in J89's Commentary (original version).
Even the current version is NOT correct (not saying anything about "dead" or "alive" stones any longer, but), declaring ALL stones in the corner being "seki stones", because they have a "dame".
In addition, this error was also ADDED to the commentary to L&D Example 25, which was CORRECT in the ORIGINAL version (according to James Davies' translation).

The corresposing legal text of Article 8 does NOT leave any room for misunderstanding:
ONLY "alive" stones can become "seki STONES".
But both sides single stones are "dead"!!!

It simply did not make any sense to insert popular science explanation into a rules text. At least not at this crucial spot!
It should be evident that IT DOES MATTER whether stones are part of a "seki" (which is NOT defined in J89), or are "seki stones", as defined within J89.

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 Post subject: Re: J89's Article 7 (L&D):: Reverse engineered
Post #23 Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:55 am 
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The single stone must be dead so that the intersection can be dame so the other stones can be seki. I don't see any issue with saying that stones 1-6 are living seki stones when considered together even though stone 6 is dead when considered alone. Especially because this is how the example does it. It is similar but opposite to the concept of a seki collapse where stones can be deemed alive seki stones but actually when assessing their status along with other stones, the would-be seki stones are now dead. This is just the rationale of the rule designers. It can't be right or wrong, it is just a design choice.

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