EGF and Fischer

[kokomi]

I still think 60 + n x 20' is better than 75. I do not like single byo-yomi time. With 75m sudden death, I do not set an alarm at 60m, telling myself i need to hurry up. At 60m, what i think is I still have 15m, not I'm in a status of byo-yomi and may run into lack of time.

Sudden death is just horrible, not for serious game. I would play fun game with sudden death setting.

[willemien]

More from a theoretical background

I would prefer Brondstein or delay timing

As with standard Byoyomi and canadian byoyomi is is spilling and spilling systems are supposed to lead to a more relaxed game (If by quick playing you lose the bonustime anyway, it is hoped that players therefore will play more relaxed)

maybe a job for the rules comittee to give guidlines for minimal timing requirements using the different time systems

[karaklis]

I am not sure whether I got it right what you wrote, but I think you can play in a more relaxed way if time is not spilt (because the player can accumulate an appropriate amount of time for difficult situations). Also it is fairer if it is guaranteed by the system that both players have the same amount of time available regardless of how much they have already used up. This only works if time is not spilt.

[Harleqin]

I think it needs to be stressed that time is not accumulated with Bonus time. This may seem contradictory, but I urge you to think about how the number of moves remaining and the time reserve are correlated. The accumulation is really an illusion.

Anyway, I believe that the idea to force the players to use more time through spilling is fundamentally bad. Even if one accepts the basic premise of this idea, there are many moves that are more or less automatic and do not warrant thinking for even 10 seconds. Players should generally be allowed and encouraged to use their time as they see fit.

[willemien]

I think it needs to be stressed that time is not accumulated with Bonus time. This may seem contradictory, but I urge you to think about how the number of moves remaining and the time reserve are correlated. The accumulation is really an illusion.

Anyway, I believe that the idea to force the players to use more time through spilling is fundamentally bad. Even if one accepts the basic premise of this idea, there are many moves that are more or less automatic and do not warrant thinking for even 10 seconds. Players should generally be allowed and encouraged to use their time as they see fit.

Am i forcing players to use more time?
I hope i did not do that, but the result of delay timing is that you don't get any "profit" from it.

Are the moves that do not warrant thinking for even 10 seconds sometimes the losing move?

I urge you to think about how the number of moves remaining and the time reserve are correlated

What do you mean?

I am not sure whether I got it right what you wrote, but I think you can play in a more relaxed way if time is not spilt (because the player can accumulate an appropriate amount of time for difficult situations). Also it is fairer if it is guaranteed by the system that both players have the same amount of time available regardless of how much they have already used up. This only works if time is not spilt.

I don't understand what you mean here.
Delay time garantees that players have the same amount of time available regardless of how much they have already used up. (they always get the bonus time for every move) the difference is that they cannot transfer unused bonus time to a later period.

Maybe i was not clear the idea is that with delay timing the bonus time is higher than with fisher timing,because it is spilling. (Did i forget to mention this )

I think that one of te reasons for the introduction of delay timing in chess was that players always had time to write down the move on their gamesheet.


The background to my reply was the Shodan Go Bet [http://dcook.org/gobet/details.html] where the timing system that is used is Fischer time control. 40 mins + 20 secs/move
I think this is quite in favour of the computer, in the first F moves the computer will hardly use any time (the moves are just picked out of the opening or joseki book) and so the computer has F x 19 seconds extra time for when the middle game starts.

I think for the human (John Tromp) a delay time control of 40 mins + 30 secs/move would give a beter game.

[topazg]

... in the first F moves the computer will hardly use any time (the moves are just picked out of the opening or joseki book) and so the computer has F x 19 seconds extra time for when the middle game starts.

This is logically false.

The computer will have F x X seconds extra, where X is the average time per move of John Tromp minus the average time per move of the computer.

[HermanHiddema]

I think it needs to be stressed that time is not accumulated with Bonus time. This may seem contradictory, but I urge you to think about how the number of moves remaining and the time reserve are correlated. The accumulation is really an illusion.

Anyway, I believe that the idea to force the players to use more time through spilling is fundamentally bad. Even if one accepts the basic premise of this idea, there are many moves that are more or less automatic and do not warrant thinking for even 10 seconds. Players should generally be allowed and encouraged to use their time as they see fit.

Am i forcing players to use more time?
I hope i did not do that, but the result of delay timing is that you don't get any "profit" from it.

Are the moves that do not warrant thinking for even 10 seconds sometimes the losing move?

Moves that do not warrant thinking time are, for example:

• Taking back a ko when your opponent has responded to your ko threat.
• Responding to ko threats that are obviously large enough.
• Playing out the moves of a squeeze that you have decided to play
• Playing out standard sequences (e.g. hane and connect endgame)

With such moves, if they are playing with 30 seconds delay, then you're effectively forcing players to use 28 seconds on reading other things if they want to use their time optimally. Which is annoying, IMO.

[willemien]

... in the first F moves the computer will hardly use any time (the moves are just picked out of the opening or joseki book) and so the computer has F x 19 seconds extra time for when the middle game starts.

This is logically false.

The computer will have F x X seconds extra, where X is the average time per move of John Tromp minus the average time per move of the computer.

Did i made an error again?

Suppose

Opening is 20 moves (40 stones)

The Computer is using his opening book uses only 1 second per move

Using Fischer time control. 40 mins + 20 secs/move

The computer has after the opening 40mins + 20 x 19 secs(unused fisher time) = 40 mins + 380 secs = 46 mins 20 secs remaining.

Using Bronstein time control. 40 mins + 30 secs/move

The computer has after the opening 40mins + nothing = 40 mins remaining

(And I was only refering to this 6mins 20 secs difference)

For John Tromp to have the same time under Fisher time control he also has to play 1 move per second.
While under Bronstein time control he won't get any difference as long as he is under 30 sec per move.

[topazg]

(And I was only refering to this 6mins 20 secs difference)

Ah, I was assuming you were comparing as advantage the computer gains over the human due to thinking times. Sure, if the human is slower but within 30 seconds there would be no difference between them at the end of the opening, but I'm not sure how much difference this makes or relevance this has. With 30 second delay timing, there is never any benefit in making a single move in less than 30 seconds, even if it is protecting against an atari of a 45 stone group, and I think this unnecessarily drags out the game. It is possible for the two sides to end up with very unbalanced overall times, and I don't consider this to be much of a benefit in a system.

Herman has raised some excellent points IMO.

[karaklis]

The accumulation is really an illusion.

Of course. With accumulation I mean the time you can use for a single move until you run out of time (e.g. because there's a complicated situation on the board and you need a lot of time to ponder on this move).

I don't understand what you mean here.
Delay time garantees that players have the same amount of time available regardless of how much they have already used up.

There are situations where a player can (and wants to) play a sequence of moves rather quickly. In the delay time system this time is spilt whereas in bonus time this time can be saved for later. It is obvious that spilling time is disadvantageous.

[willemien]

It looks from all the reactions that i am a very small minority (of one?)

Moves that do not warrant thinking time are, for example:

• Taking back a ko when your opponent has responded to your ko threat.
• Responding to ko threats that are obviously large enough.
• Playing out the moves of a squeeze that you have decided to play
• Playing out standard sequences (e.g. hane and connect endgame)

With such moves, if they are playing with 30 seconds delay, then you're effectively forcing players to use 28 seconds on reading other things if they want to use their time optimally. Which is annoying, IMO.

I don't think we will ever agree on this. you see overtime as an full part of the time. And so every(?) spilling time system is unfair. (I hope I don't exaggerate to much)
While I see overtime as a method to prevent players pushing eachother into time pressure.
(what i do not find good sportmanship)

Or more practical, you would think of playing forcing moves (just) to get extra time as a good thing while i see them as ugly.

I guess it are just different ways to look at the game

[HermanHiddema]

It looks from all the reactions that i am a very small minority (of one?)

Moves that do not warrant thinking time are, for example:

• Taking back a ko when your opponent has responded to your ko threat.
• Responding to ko threats that are obviously large enough.
• Playing out the moves of a squeeze that you have decided to play
• Playing out standard sequences (e.g. hane and connect endgame)

With such moves, if they are playing with 30 seconds delay, then you're effectively forcing players to use 28 seconds on reading other things if they want to use their time optimally. Which is annoying, IMO.

I don't think we will ever agree on this. you see overtime as an full part of the time. And so every(?) spilling time system is unfair. (I hope I don't exaggerate to much)

I don't see it as unfair at all. But if I want to use my time optimally, then I should use those 28 seconds for something. In the case of taking back a ko, I have the choice to let them spill, or I can use them to already look at other ko threats, and only take back the ko on the 30th second. That way, I've gained thinking time, and used it, by not letting time spill. There is nothing unfair about it, as it is the same for both players. But my personal opinion is that I find it annoying to play with. The clock is "forcing" a pace on me.

While I see overtime as a method to prevent players pushing eachother into time pressure.
(what i do not find good sportmanship)

Yes, but there is no inherent advantage of delay time (Bronstein) over bonus time (Fischer) in preventing this. If anything, delay time leads to more time pressure than bonus time, because you can never build your time back up.

Or more practical, you would think of playing forcing moves (just) to get extra time as a good thing while i see them as ugly.

No, I wouldn't. If you play forcing moves to gain time, you're losing ko threats at the same time. So they are not a good thing, they are bad moves, though they do gain time.

Also, the same moves also work with delay time. If I want 30 more seconds to think, I can play a forcing move on the 29th second, repeatedly if need be. This is the same also with byoyomi, where it is know as a "time tesuji". I've seen opponents play time tesujis that turned out to be aji keshi and lose them points in the endgame. So they were bad moves, though perhaps necessary for them from a time perspective.

I guess it are just different ways to look at the game

[topazg]

Yes, but there is no inherent advantage of delay time (Bronstein) over bonus time (Fischer) in preventing this. If anything, delay time leads to more time pressure than bonus time, because you can never build your time back up.

I agree, I find Bronstein much more time pressured than Fischer

Or more practical, you would think of playing forcing moves (just) to get extra time as a good thing while i see them as ugly.

Bronstein makes this a worse issue than Fischer timing. There's no advantage to doing this in Fischer time unless your clock is literally about to run out. In delay timing, this tactic can hold advantages at every stage in the game. Got 8 minutes left on the clock but in a really difficult situation? No problem, waste your ko threats by playing out the forced sequence against that group over there 10 times and you buy yourself 5 minutes for free and still have 8 minutes left. In Fischer time, those moves will earn you the time whether you play them straight away or wait the full 30 seconds each time, so the tactic of deliberately waiting and playing a time tesuji doesn't apply. You'd only bother if that 8 minutes turned into 8 seconds.

[willemien]

you are all starting to convince me.

my last line of defencce is that the bonus time in Bronstein timing can be higher than in Fisher timing. (because of all the spilled time) But I guess that doesn't solve the problem

Bronstein makes this a worse issue than Fischer timing. There's no advantage to doing this in Fischer time unless your clock is literally about to run out. In delay timing, this tactic can hold advantages at every stage in the game. Got 8 minutes left on the clock but in a really difficult situation? No problem, waste your ko threats by playing out the forced sequence against that group over there 10 times and you buy yourself 5 minutes for free and still have 8 minutes left. In Fischer time, those moves will earn you the time whether you play them straight away or wait the full 30 seconds each time, so the tactic of deliberately waiting and playing a time tesuji doesn't apply. You'd only bother if that 8 minutes turned into 8 seconds.

Thanks

[Javaness]

Why should there be anything wrong with time pressure though?