It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:26 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:17 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 233
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 51
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
We had lot of Korean visitors in Prague EGC-2005
Here is the table: http://eurogofed.org/results/congress/egc05m.txt

Robert Jasiek made Top Koreans very unhappy. He played in the supergroup himself (as usual, without any success), but lot of Koreans who can give him 3-5 handicap stones started from the next group.

Park, Jong-Wook, former 1st class insei (Japanese 8-9p level) was not allowed to start from the supergroup.
Other top Koreans were not allowed too:
Kim, Dong Chan (5th class insei)
Yoon, Kwang-sun (EGC-2004 winner)
Kim, Kyung-rae (in best 100 amateurs in Korea)
Kim, Se Young (one of the best girls in Korea, who was very close to becoming 1d pro)
Kim, Jong-min (in best 100 amateurs in Korea)

Most of these Koreans never played in EGC again. They were very angry, I guess.
As a result, next year EGC was the smallest EGC in history - with only few top Koreans attending it.

What was the right decision in 2005? With so many top Asians it was necessary to contact EGF president and ask the permission to allow more than 8 Asians to play in the supergroup. I am sure, EGF president can make the decision to change the supergroup rules in such special cases.
16 Asians +16 Europeans was probably the best choice in 2005. But Robert did not make any steps in this direction because with 16+16 systems it was not possible for him to stay in the supergroup, so he made common 24+8 and we got really unbalanced tournament.

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:27 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 233
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 51
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
Ondrei Silt (#16) for example, beat all Europeans and lost 4 games to Koreans. All these Koreans were not in the supergroup!
Christian Pop (#18) also lost his games only to Korean players.

Why is it so important for main candidates to start from the supergroup? The handicap is not just 1 point. Usually it's 1 point +better sos. Because supergroup players get much stronger opponents in early rounds.

You may check the results of #9 (Yoon, Kwang-sun). He was the EGC-2004 winner
Yun was not in the supergroup and was paired with #207 in the first round. It means that after round 1 he is 1 MM point plus 3-4 points of SOS behind of other candidates for top prizes.

We never saw him on EGC again after that story

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:26 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 842
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 151
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
I don't understand why you would want to involve the EFG president. It's not their responsibility. It's the responsibility of the tournament director (and anyone else mandated to enforce the agreed rules and procedures).

If these people are also contending for prizes (or, in this situation, the right to play in some elite group), then there is a conflict of interest. This is unfortunate, but probably quite hard to avoid in such a marginal activity as Go.

Not being familiar with the circumstances of the event you bring up, I can't really comment in detail. However, the nature of your post implies that you know Robert behaved correctly acccording to the rules, but that you think he should have broken the rules in order to do the "right thing" (from the Korean visitor's point of view).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:19 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
(empty)


Last edited by RobertJasiek on Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:20 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
breakfast wrote:
Robert Jasiek made Top Koreans very unhappy.


As usual and unfortunate, you confuse my actions with the actions of others and the valid rules at that time.

The most responsible were the AGMs of 2004 and earlier years that by their inactivity (despite the known facts of the EC 2003 and Rules Commission's attempts to do something soon in view of that changed situation) let the existing rules be valid also in 2005. The next important responsibility was at the hands of the Tournament Supervisors body, which - be careful you understand this well - consisted of, IIRC, three (or was it four or five?) members, i.e., did not consist of - as you implicitly suggest - only one member (myself).

The valid rules of 2005 did not have a provision that would have allowed the Tournament Supervisors to replace their responsibility by substituting it with that of the EGC Committee members present at the congress. The valid rules of 2005 specified 8 to be the maximal number of strong non-Europeans, provided that the number of strong local (Czech) players and of strong young improving Europeans was 0.

What you call a mistake was a correct application of the valid rules! I am proud to have applied the valid rules correctly! It is a shame that you suggest intentional breaking of the valid rules!

The AGM delegates of the following years did not become active by themselves. It was I in 2008 to get the AGM change to rules (from up to 8 to up to ca. 8) so that the same practical problem (a few more present strong non-Europeans than may be in the supergroup) will not occur again. Instead of thanking me for having been the one to solve the problem, you accuse me of having caused the harm at all and alone.

Now what was the situation in 2005 when the Tournament Supervisors were forming the supergroup? I have to recall most from the memory, so slight inaccuries in the memorized facts are possible.

The Tournament Supervisors were (IIRC) Matti Siivola, Geoff Kaniuk, I. Ales Cieply was asked whether the Czech insisted on having a local player admitted; he did not want it. (That Matti Siivola and Ales Cieply were also EGF Committee members does not play a relevant role; they did not act in that function during the supergroup formation.)

We had some EGF-rated Korean 7d, some EGF-unrated Korean 7d, some EGF-rated Korean 6d, some EGF-unrated Korean 6d, some rated Japanese 5d-6d with rating clearly below the rated Korean 7d ratings.

First we decided not to admit any strong local player nor any young improving European. We decided so as to allow the maximal legally valid number 8 of strong non-Europeans.

Since there were enough Korean 7d and we trusted the rank information, we decided to disregard, among whichever Koreans we would admit, the Korean 6d.

Half of the Korean 7d were rated - the other half was unrated. Park Jong-Wook was not registered / signed as a supergroup candidate yet. (To me it is unknown for what reason he had missed to register for that thus far.)

Since we could not know and could not get conclusive information about that whether the rated Koreans or the unrated Koreans might be stronger relatively to each other, we decided to select, for the Koreans, half from the rated and half from the unrated Koreans.

We had to decide of how to compare different Asian countries to each other. Mainly we knew from the EC 2003 that the Koreans would be mostly or totally stronger than the Japanese. This suggested that one of the following country distributions of Koreans : Japanese (top Chinese or Taiwanese or others were not present) would be the most appropriate: 8:0, 7:1, 6:2. When unrated players are involved, it is particularly hard to find the necessarily best option. All we could do is to make some partly political decision for some suitable reasons. Although the Tournament Supergroup meeting was not public (everything else would not allow sufficiently time efficient decision making), I think that the reasoning is in everybody's interest; therefore I make it public (or have I done so before?), although I would not need to do so.

Geoff Kaniuk and Matti Siivola supported the vote for 6:2 on the grounds that the many (and regularly many) Japanese congress participants would not understand a yet more unfavourable proportion. I supported the vote 7:1 because of the very apparent superiority of the Koreans in the EC 2003 and their greater ratings (as far as known). IOW, I was voted down. Considering that I supported more Koreans than the other Tournament Supervisors, Alexander, it is particularly inappropriate and unreasonable for you trying to blame me and only me.

Given the 6:2 distribution, we could now apply it and take 3 rated and unrated Koreans each. Supergroup solved, so we tought.

Since, IIRC, we had exactly 3 signed Tournament Agreements each from rated and unrated Korean 7d, this fit particularly well. Now you see some more Korean 7d having played all 10 rounds in the result table. There can be different reasons why they did not sign the Tournament Agreement with application for the supergroup: a) They intended to stay for a shorter period and later changed their mind. b) They knew about the meaning of applying for the supergroup but chose not to apply. c) They did not know about the meaning of applying for the supergroup because of language difficulties and the congress organizers at the registration desks failed to do their job properly with them. Since, as a regular Tournament Supervisor, I am well aware of the possiblity (c), every year I tell the congress organizers to ensure proper handling and translation help with the Tournament Agreement forms. I tell the organizers very clearly and often I do so before the congress starts and when I arrive the congress venue myself. Congress organizers make mistakes though and so one can never exclude the possibility of (c) for some non-English speaking top players. During the formation of the supergroup, the Tournament Supervisors can never really solve those problems. Especially not when time is short, as it was in 2005. Nevertheless we did work very hard and delayed the start of round 1 by letting some congress organizers help us, running around the particularly wide congress venue in search of top Koreans etc. and we even ran around ourselves for that purpose, as far as time still allowed us. (The only way to do yet "better" at that time is to delay the round 1 start by yet further hours by pretending a done pairing, let everybody sit down, then revealing the intention of a fake round start and interview the interesting players.)

Then (pretty delayed way beyond the deadline!) came Park Jong-Wook with translator and signed the Tournament Agreement form with application to the supergroup. IIRC, he belonged to the unrated Korean 7d. We told him we would make a decision. This we did as follows: Since we were aware of possible congress organizers problems, we assumed Park not to have been responsible for his delay; so we treated him equally within the other given context. We took the now 4 unrated Korean 7d and drew a lot whom to exclude from the supergroup. That lot hit Park Jong-Wook himself. (Strange coincidence.)

Quote:
He played in the supergroup himself


Are you implying that I would make prejudiced decisions about being in the supergroup in favour of myself? I do not do such! Rather I apply the valid rules. Anybody else applying the valid rules of 2005 would have had to include me in the supergroup.

Quote:
(as usual, without any success),


Actually with 6 wins in the EC and other good achievements (like an overwhelming success of 9-7 fuseki) let the 2005 congress be a successful one for me.

Quote:
but lot of Koreans who can give him 3-5 handicap stones started from the next group.


I am willing to prove the opposite under similar playing conditions: 2.5 hours basic time, real world games, dynamic handicap. Organize such matches and I shall uphold the power of European 5d's!:)

In the following reference table, A means Asian, AS means Asian In Supergroup.

Code:
  1  Dinerstein, Alexandr   7d   RU   32 8  13+  2+   14+  8+   7+   3-   54+  12-  9+   5+    8   306  244
  2  Cho, Seok-bin          7d   KR AS32 8  30+  1-   9+   59+  5+   10+  4+   3-   12+  15+   8   305  241
  3  Park, Jong-Wook        7d   KR A 32 9  96+  58+  11+  16+  6+   1+   13+  2+   5-   4+    9   302  271
  4  Lee, Hong-bok          7d   KR AS31 7  6-  128+  21+  15+  17+  7+   2-   18+  13+  3-    7   303  208
  5  Kim, Dong Chan         7d   KR A 31 8  41+  70+  32+  20+  2-   15+  27+  14+  3+   1-    8   301  237
  6  Lee, Ki-bong           7d   KR AS31 7  4+   20+  7-   12+  3-   11-  64+  21+  43+  14+   7   301  208
  7  Taranu, Catalin        7d   RO   31 7  58+  27+  6+   17+  1-   4-   9-   40+  19+  11+   7   301  207
  8  Shikshin, Ilja         6d   RU   31 7  31+  11+  28+  1-   10-  21+  12-  23+  17+  44+   7   300  207
  9  Yoon, Kwang-sun        7d   KR A 31 8 207+  23+  2-   35+  22+  39+  7+   10+  1-   13+   8   299  235
10  Kim, Kyung-rae         6d   KR A 31 8 103+  29+  87+  27+  8+   2-   11+  9-   16+  12+   8   297  234
11  Yoon, Sa-Youn          7d   KR AS30 6  37+  8-   3-  128+  24+  6+   10-  20+  18+  7-    6   302  177
12  Kim, Se Young          7d   KR A 30 7 111+  85+  18+  6-   16+  28+  8+   1+   2-   10-   7   301  207
13  Zhao, Pei              6d   DE   30 6  1-   40+  34+  22+  30+  14+  3-   57+  4-   9-    6   301  175
14  Lim, Yeon-sik          7d   KR AS30 6  63+  18+  1-   53+  28+  13-  19+  5-   22+  6-    6   299  175
15  Shikshina, Svetlana    7d   RU   30 6  42+  55+  17-  4-   41+  5-   36+  27+  25+  2-    6   298  174
16  Silt, Ondrej           6d   CZ   30 6  35+  28-  36+  3-   12-  69+  24+  34+  10-  33+   6   296  174
17  Colmez, Pierre         5d   FR   30 6  87+  32+  15+  7-   4-   25+  18-  54+  8-   91+   6   296  173
18  Pop, Cristian          7d   RO   30 6  19+  14-  12- 133+  37+  30+  17+  4-   11-  31+   6   295  174
     Kai, Naoyuki           6d   JP AS30 6  18-  38+  22-  66+  23+  32+  14-  29+  7-   30+   6   295  174
20  Gerlach, Christoph     6d   DE   30 6  25+  6-   54+  5-   26-  77+  61+  11-  40+  28+   6   294  172
21  Cho, Chang-sam         5d   KR A 30 7 102+  98+  4-   38+  29+  8-   32+  6-   36+  35+   7   292  199
22  Kulkov, Andrej         6d   RU   30 6  27-  57+  19+  13-  9-   43+  66+  55+  14-  32+   6   292  172
23  Kim, Jong-min          6d   KR A 30 7  45+  9-   61+  57+  19-  75+  37+  8-   53+  27+   7   291  199
24  Lee, Sung-keun         6d   KR A 30 7 101+  30-  51+  45+  11-  63+  16-  62+  75+  29+   7   287  198
25  Jasiek, Robert         5d   DE   30 6  20-  60+  55- 102+  96+  17-  53+  31+  15-  41+   6   286  168
26  Ichikawa, Suguru       5d   JP A 30 4  --   74+  33+  58+  20+  --   --   --   --   --    4   253  115
27  Heiser, Laurent        6d   LU   29 5  22+  7-   65+  10- 168+  56+  5-   15-  39+  23-   5   294  141
28  Kang, Na-yeon          7d   KR AS29 5  97+  16+  8-   39+  14-  12-  40-  91+  47+  20-   5   293  143
29  Soldan, Leszek         5d   PL   29 5  55-  10-  64+  44+  21-  60+  35+  19-  45+  24-   5   292  143
30  Corlan, Lucian         4d   RO   29 5  2-   24+  35+  55+  13-  18-  57- 183+  38+  19-   5   292  142
31  Nemlij, Igor           5d   RU   29 5  8-   52+  53-  40+  56-  44+  39+  25-  55+  18-   5   291  144
32  Dach, Zbynek           4d   CZ   29 5  46+  17-  5-  144+  84+  19-  21-  85+  54+  22-   5   291  140
33  Kim, Hye-soon          6d   KR A 29 6  49+  35-  26-  67+  47+  65+  55-  48+  34+  16-   6   289  172
34  Ohmori, Hirobumi       5d   JP A 29 6  71+  37+  13-  47+  54-  41+  56+  16-  33-  90+   6   288  171
35  Jacenko, Dmitrij       5d   UA   29 5  16-  33+  30-  9-  150+  62+  29-  90+  57+  21-   5   288  139
36  Cheburakhov, Andrej    5d   RU   29 6  68+ 136+  16-  52-  45+  84+  15-  60+  21-  56+   6   287  168
37  Dugin, Artem           4d   RU   29 5  11-  34-  48+  70+  18- 100+  23-  97+  44-  57+   5   287  139
38  Giedrojc, Krzysztof    4d   PL   29 6 137+  19-  49+  21-  48+  53-  67+  73+  30-  71+   6   286  169
39  Yoshida, Takao         6d   JP A 29 6  93+  56+  97+  28-  59+  9-   31-  69+  27-  53+   6   285  167
40  Kim, Han Ul            6d   KR A 29 6 117+  13- 152+  31- 107+  97+  28+  7-   20-  67+   6   284  164
41  Cipra, Petr            4d   CZ   29 6  5-  210+ 184+  98+  15-  34-  72+  74+  42+  25-   6   283  163
42  Tanaka, Masanori       5d   JP AS29 5  15-  47+  59-  46- 105+  66+  97-  64+  41-  80+   5   283  140

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:38 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
I think you did do really very well in that tournament Robert, but I do question your claim of upholding European 5 dan power. I don't mean this in any way to be a criticism, but you haven't hit GoR 2500 at all in the last 15 years, and have dropped below 2400 quite a few times (http://www.europeangodatabase.eu/EGD/Pl ... y=10213203) - Why don't you consider yourself to be a European 4 dan?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Because I do not trust any rating system much, I do not derive my rank from rating, do not only consider my lows but also all my other achievements (including also average and peaks), do not consider only my rated games but all my games and their circumstances, compare my game results against other players and their ranks and the contexts of their ranks, consider also go knowledge (common practical go theory) to be part of the rank, and am currently using the traditional ranking system, which knows increments only (except for very consistent, long term contradictory data).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:09 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 233
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 51
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
So, Robert, even with 2404 rating you would like to be in the supergroup in Tampere?
You will need very big supergroup in this case ...

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/


This post by breakfast was liked by: LovroKlc
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:22 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 233
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 51
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
About EGC-2005: technically everything was under written rules.
But imagine the situation: 9 Asian pros will come to EGC and play in the Main tournament. Will you allow only 8 of them to stay in the supergroup?

It's not only a problem for the last 9th person. It's the problem for all candidates for prizes. In 2005 we had very unbalanced supergroup and next group.It was like in loterry: European 3-4dans and Park (1st class insei) in the same group.
Robert Jasiek and Ondrej Silt got the same MM at the end, they both won 6 games from 10.
Ondrej lost 4 of his games to Koreans. Robert lost to 4 Europeans (including Gerlach, Kostka and Colmez)
Was it fair?

It was a very special event, with too many strong Koreans. I am sure, the best decision was to get the permission to include them all to the supergroup (with bigger than 32 supergroup or with less Europeans inside)

Why do you think about politics, when you make the supergroup? Japanese players you accepted to the supergroup were much weaker than Koreans you did not accept.

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:52 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
breakfast wrote:
So, Robert, even with 2404 rating you would like to be in the supergroup in Tampere?
You will need very big supergroup in this case ...


I agree, it is fairly clear that self-declared ranks should not be how participation in the supergroup is decided. What is to stop a 3d entering as a 7d to get in the supergroup? Some adherence must be made to EGF ratings.


This post by topazg was liked by: breakfast
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:16 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 842
Liked others: 180
Was liked: 151
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
breakfast wrote:
About EGC-2005: technically everything was under written rules.
But imagine the situation: 9 Asian pros will come to EGC and play in the Main tournament. Will you allow only 8 of them to stay in the supergroup?


If I was the organizer, responsible for adhering to the rules, then absolutely, yes. Ad hoc breaking of rules is a recipe for disaster, chaos, recriminations, unhappiness, and presumably, the loss of my job (assuming I cared about the job). Your theoretical example is completely different from the situation where the majority of Asian players had vague, unverifiable ranks.

Anyway, I'm assuming your real point is that the organizers need to be allowed some discretion (within the rules) to deal as fairly as they can with the circumstances as they happen at the actual event. I think that is a reasonable point, and I hope that that is the case now. Your personal attacks on Robert, however, discredit you (and this forum).


This post by quantumf was liked by: Harleqin
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:00 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
breakfast wrote:
So, Robert, even with 2404 rating you would like to be in the supergroup in Tampere?
You will need very big supergroup in this case ...


Since you ask if I want: yes. If you had asked whether I considered it likely: no. Lust year, despite the high record lower rating bar of, IIRC, 2464 or 2466, I was lucky with 2470.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:27 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
breakfast wrote:
About EGC-2005: technically everything was under written rules.
But imagine the situation: 9 Asian pros will come to EGC and play in the Main tournament. Will you allow only 8 of them to stay in the supergroup?


Since you are using future time in your question: It is possible that we might allow all; it depends on the present amateurs and their relative strengths to the present professionals. The real situation would likely be 20 or 30 Asians wishing to be in the supergroup. Under the current rules, the only chance to make you happy then is reference to GTR §1.5.1: http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/egfgtr.html . Since such situations have not occurred yet, it is hard to predict what the bodies in charge would do. I can only say what I might likely do, if there is enough time for discussion: Consider several alternatives of rules application and ad hoc rules changes. A too big supergroup (24 Europeans + 30 Asians) would also not make too much sense. I would try to find out the intention of the Asian top players: win the Open, play against each other, play against Europeans, teach many Europeans in the games. Suppose we could find out this. If they want to teach, then their initial MMS does not matter much to them. If they want to win, then on top of the supergroup MMS further MM groups could be built. I guess though that also other designs are possible.

Note that the current tournament rules situation differs significantly from the 2005 rules! In 2005, I would have put a lot of the strong Asian players one MMS below the supergroup.

Quote:
Was it fair?


If fairness is "according to the rules": yes.
If fairness is "best possible tournament system": no.

Quote:
Why do you think about politics, when you make the supergroup?


First of all, I think about application of the rules. Within the rules and when unrated players, players from different countries, and players with a one year old last previous rating come while background information is very limited, there is no chance but to make politics. Even a decision "Admit only rated players" would be politics. Often the last rated game was from the previous EC or even before that.

Quote:
Japanese players you accepted to the supergroup were much weaker than Koreans you did not accept.


In retrospect, we can say so easily. In advance, it is often guesswork. In case of Kai Naoyuki I was not sure (unrated, unknown 7d are not enough information to be sure). In case of Tanaka Masanori I was sure but was voted down.


This post by RobertJasiek was liked by: topazg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:33 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
topazg wrote:
it is fairly clear that self-declared ranks should not be how participation in the supergroup is decided. What is to stop a 3d entering as a 7d to get in the supergroup? Some adherence must be made to EGF ratings.


LOL. Of course we are aware of that. We would not trust every Japanese 7d. For Korean 7d, where the 7d is already the converted European rank, it is usually very reasonable to assume real 7d strength though because the Koreans know about the rank difference problem very well; they talk about it among each other, Sang Dae Hahn and maybe also Dinerstein inform them. Hopefully also the congress organizers inform them.

By adherance to ratings, as you suggest, we would have excluded ALL strong Koreans in 2003, when they started to attend. No, we can do at least better than that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:45 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4511
Location: Chatteris, UK
Liked others: 1589
Was liked: 656
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
RobertJasiek wrote:
topazg wrote:
it is fairly clear that self-declared ranks should not be how participation in the supergroup is decided. What is to stop a 3d entering as a 7d to get in the supergroup? Some adherence must be made to EGF ratings.


LOL. Of course we are aware of that. We would not trust every Japanese 7d. For Korean 7d, where the 7d is already the converted European rank, it is usually very reasonable to assume real 7d strength though because the Koreans know about the rank difference problem very well; they talk about it among each other, Sang Dae Hahn and maybe also Dinerstein inform them. Hopefully also the congress organizers inform them.

By adherance to ratings, as you suggest, we would have excluded ALL strong Koreans in 2003, when they started to attend. No, we can do at least better than that.


Sure, but there's a difference between people with a history or benchmark we can observe or an active rating, and those with nothing we can assess at all. If a Japanese 7d with no other information comes across, it makes sense to assume GoR 2700. For someone with GoR 2512 trying to enter as 7d, it makes sense to assume GoR 2512 - that was all...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #16 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
topazg wrote:
If a Japanese 7d with no other information comes across, it makes sense to assume GoR 2700.


No. It makes sense to assume some playing strength between European 2d to 7d, the most likely 5d-6d. As you know, Japanese ranks can be bought. From time to time it happens that a Japanese dan player loses all his 10 games... I am sorry to say but Japanese ranks cannot be trusted as much as Korean ranks at all. Neither absolutely nor WRT their confidence. Regular congress participants know this but newcomers sometimes have no idea about different ranking systems at all.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #17 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:42 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
what is European 5d like?
i just pushed my rank up to 5d (probably will go down to 4d soon) in KGS but i would not play for money with 4 stone handycap against top koreans.
they are that strong...
if European 5d is anything close to KGS 5d then you dont want to play them for money with only 3 stone. you will lose 10 out of 10 games. 4 stones you will probably will lose also.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #18 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:40 am 
Judan

Posts: 6087
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 786
Magicwand wrote:
if European 5d is anything close to KGS 5d


Plus-minus 9 ranks (up to 9d). In case of escapers, sometimes more than that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #19 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:56 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 233
Location: Russia
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 51
Rank: 3p
GD Posts: 300
KGS: breakfast
Do we have any 9-dans? Strongest EGF 5-dans on KGS are probably flashback and loveher.
Weakest EGF 5-dans are near 1-2d KGS

_________________
Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Mistakes in EGC-2005 (Prague)
Post #20 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:02 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4844
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Liked others: 62
Was liked: 505
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
breakfast wrote:
Weakest EGF 5-dans are near 1-2d KGS


if this is the case... they can not even hold 5 stone handy against strong korean players.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"

Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group