To be fair, separating women in sports, is because they have smaller bodies (in general) and lower physical strength. So there is a logic, and one that is not contested by women. As for sprinters, just last week, a 23-year old Frenchman was the first white person who went under 10 seconds in the 100m. So, yes, there clearly is something there.

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I think separation based on gender is also a stupid reason. But I think women only tournaments are an example of what they call "positive discrimination". There has been a long history of systematic discrimination against women in many societies and activities. The benefit of "women only" is, IMO, that it allows women who play go to connect and share experiences. From what I've heard from women participating in such events, it is the main reason they enjoy it. It is rare for them to meet many women at regular tournaments, and it is fun to gather them all at one place, to share experiences, and to strengthen the idea "See, I'm not weird for being a woman who plays go, there's plenty of other women who enjoy it". If and when the playing population is pretty much 50-50 men/women, I don't see any reason to continue holding such events.



I think that institutionalized restrictions are harmful. If there was a general restriction against Asian players participating in European tournaments, that would be harmful. As such, I am no fan of the current prize money rules for the Pandanet tour.

But I don't think that single event restrictions are harmful. If someone wants to hold a "People born on a monday" tournament, go right ahead!

In fact, I think that an institutionalized "you may never restrict access to your event in any way" rule is also harmful.

It seems some people feel that too many non-europeans are attracted by the money so that too little is left for the european moneyseekers. I think the problem starts where the money comes in. The money should be optimally used to promote eurepean go in my opinion. Practical problems aside what about the idea to divide the money in another way. For example to give money to strong participators who gained points in previous tournaments in EGF-countries. Or give part of the price money as vouchers to be spent in later go-related-activities in any EGF-country.

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I think I am so I think I am.

I don't think limiting prize money to strong players is constructive. 90% of players will never be strong enough to win a tournament. It is good to have prize money for weaker players also, it motivates them to win their division, or do their best to score a significant result.

Recognition for good play is important also if you're not the strongest player in the world. I organize tournaments regularly, and we always have prizes for people with at least a 4/5 score. And it doesn't matter who these people are, whether they're a 10k that's been stuck there for years or a 1k that's improving rapidly, they are always happy and proud to be called to the front and receive their prize and applause.

if that is what you are after..do not use geograhpical restriction to accomplish that.
just make a 2-3 dan, 4-5 dan, 5-6 dan, and open rank. i am only 4d in kgs but every big tournament i enter in A league. i lost all but 1 game and i am happy to play and learn.

if you are weak german 5dan then dont even try to win because you are probably 3 stone weaker than the strong players. just be happy that you had few games against the top ranked playes.

if you want your tournament to be successful you need some strong and famous player to participate. if you restrict them you are only hurting yourself and go community's growth.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

Even the weak German 5 dans are probably not that weak.

You've lost me here.
What do you mean and who indicated any such thing? Whare does Colonialism fit into all that? Nobody wants to colonize Asia, from what i can tell. Or do you mean we should let Asia colonize Europe? I am confused.

My point is that, when cultures meet, regardless of the platform of this meeting, both need to recognize and respect each other. I see no reasons for submissiveness by determining that one should always assume the host role and the other the guest role. We come to your torf, we are guests and should understand that. You show up on our turf, you are the guest. Skill in playing a game should have very little influence in that. Unless you want to use this skill as bargaining chip in a play for a stronger position, i.e. bullying.

On a personal level it would work for me like that:
If I had Go Seigen visiting me in my house, I would try to be the best host I could possibly be, but I would still be the host. I would expect him to be a very gracious guest, but still the guest. Anything else would be highly disrespectful, I think. The roles are clearly defined, and in no ways flexible. I would not be happy if he tried to usurp the host role in my own house, while forcing me play the guest. Regardless of how well he plays Go.

I think both the host and the guest have responsibilities and duties with regard to respect, hospitality, politeness, and so on.
Being a host does not imply disrespect. I think that being a host who tries to behave like a guest shows disrespect since it puts the guest in the awkward position to try to behave like the host in unfamiliar setting.

But that's all just a tangent.



We all have issues.

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- Bantari
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Youth championships have many sections and many prize categories. Their aim is to pamper children - give them as much encouragement as possible, because they are the next generation of players. Give them success, titles, praise, recognition, whatever is available. The same is true of women's events, and that includes pair Go. I am all for promotion of the game along these lines.

Why would we want to pamper caucasians, that sounds a bit racist to me.

The EGF is a members only club, and it has its (EGF) European Championship. Its constitution demands that it hold this Championship. This doesn't mean that the EGF should ignore the international success of the European Go Congress.

Lol, this is really getting hairy...

Not sure how I feel about that.
We have things like 'Black Movie Awards', or 'African American Literary Awards', or 'Latin Grammy Awards', etc... and its good that we have.
But, on the other hand, try to create a 'White Grammy Award'... you'll be branded a racist, a bigot, an enemy of the people, and rot in hell.
Seems like even trying to make a tournament 'European' is a no-no.

It seems people are OK to have (racially) closed events - but this road is 'one-way' only.

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There are plenty of socially acceptable events restricting by skin color.
Mind you - I am not putting any moral values in my statement, just stating a fact.

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I'm not too fond of that. What score you get depends almost exclusively on the rank that you declare when you register for the tournament. At that is completely arbitrary. If I'd register at my next tournament with the same rank as I used in my previous, I'd probably go 4:1 or 5:0 without it meaning anything.

And funny how similar the problems of the go and the Starcraft community are. If you include countries like Korea foreigners would not stand a chance and the top part of the tournament would end up like all those other tournaments where only Asians compete. And I feel that in go European players are basically children when compared to certain Asian countries.

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Sanity is for the weak.

I agree.
But only if we agree that 'pampering Asians' in general, or 'pampering Asian visitors' in particular, is every bit as racist.
Or: we pamper them as they pamper us (regardless of who is 'them' and who is 'us'.)
One yard-stick for all.

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Gentlemen,

Speaking as an admin: Although the discusion of race and racism/sexism has not reached a point where I would want to threaten to lock the thread, and nobody has said anything overtly racist or sexist, I can't see that it is going to lead to a good end. I ask that you redirect this conversation back to the original topic.

Thanks,
JB

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Right...

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370 GoR points is greater than 3 stones, even at 5 dan strengths...

Will you ever understand that rating difference does not determine correct handicap?

I just remember the Berlin-Hamburg Supergo a few years ago, where a 5 dan, who had been ridiculed before for his rating, took out 5 opponents in succession who were all rated higher than him.

I would not take the rating too serious, not even in the middle to high dan level.

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A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

One needs to distinguish between fame and infamy.

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Robert is famous?? for what??
can he beat any strong korean amatures who are strong as professional?? not in a million years!
i am pretty sure they can give him 3 stones and win easily.
i have seen them playing for money against strongest player in my go club (jong moon lee) in NY with 2 stones.
professional didnt even think and beat him. later he said "if the money goes up 3 stones is correct handycap"
Professional's name is Jimmy Cha.
and now strong korean amatures are stronger than Jimmy Cha.
and Jong Moon Lee is probably stronger than Robert.

from this deduction..i conclude robert can not even handle 3 stones.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I can imagine you don't like his communication style. But I like your reactions even less.

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