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 Post subject: European Professional Go League
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:31 am 
Oza

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http://eurogopro.org/opening.html

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #2 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:38 am 
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xed_over wrote:
http://eurogopro.org/opening.html


Cool... its about time.
Hope the league is successful.

My only concern - the 12 people a year to be admitted. This might lead to a dilution. I think it would make more sense to take the 12 top non-league players each year and let them compete within the league for a year, and the ones who, for example, break the 50% mark will get the EuroPro status. This way it will not only be ensured that the EuroPros stay strong, but that they become stronger each year. Not sure about dropping the bottom one/two of each year, but that would also help to keep the level high.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #3 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:43 am 
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12 new pros per year !

I think it's far too much. It will be like japan where pro rank means almost nothing about their real strenght.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #4 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:46 am 
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Weakest members in these 12 will lose pro status, so the number of professionals will be unchanged: only 12 every year. The situation in Japan is completely different.
In Korea they also think in direction of removing pro status from weak professionals

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #5 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:51 am 
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By the way, much more top Europeans were present at the meeting, Harry probably forgot to add their names. Nobody were against the idea of creating the new association.

I tried to make everything possible for defending the interests of top
players in EGF events, but without success.
No voting rights, no way
to see EGC prizes in advance, no way to decide the supergroup size, no
way to get some support on EGC in return for lectures.
It's a pity, but EGF makes nothing for top players. And the situation
in Europe is very bad, after losing main sponsors.

It's a good time to make the first step.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #6 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:54 am 
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So where does the money come from?

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #7 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Helel wrote:
I see the political benefit and the advantage in attracting students etc.
But can it be called "pro" if it doesn't mean a guaranteed minimum income? Or does it? :-?


Neither professional musicians or professional electricians have a guaranteed minimum income, to choose two professions at near-random. Of course, professional carries the expectation that there are opportunities for income, but that's not the same as a guarantee.

I will say, I have my doubts about dropping professionals, at least with a fixed 12 player pool. Take someone who hovers between 10th and 14th in Europe. Shall we say they were professional in 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 but not in 2011, 2014, 2016? That sounds absurd to me--more like qualification in a league than professional status.

I wish you all the best of luck--I'm eager to see a project like this succeed.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #8 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:15 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
I will say, I have my doubts about dropping professionals, at least with a fixed 12 player pool. Take someone who hovers between 10th and 14th in Europe. Shall we say they were professional in 2010, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2017 but not in 2011, 2014, 2016? That sounds absurd to me--more like qualification in a league than professional status.


Yeah. This is why I like my idea better.

Each year, the newcomers who break the 50% mark (or whatever) are admitted to be pros, and each year any previous pro who found him/herself in bottom 2 (or whatever) gets dropped. Make it tough to get in (but still possible) and tough to get out (but still possible) by setting the breakpoints wisely.

There is still a possibility that somebody wins the league one year, then comes last the next year, then wins it again... but the only way to prevent this is to bestow life-time club membership. Which might also be a good idea... once you earn the status, you have it, like in the strong Asian countries. The problem with that in Europe might be that the league will hopefully raise the level of European Go, in which case the 'old' pros might not measure up to the 'new' standards...

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Last edited by Bantari on Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #9 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:31 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
http://eurogopro.org/opening.html


Good luck with the league. Having a Euro League which is broadcasted somehow (EuroGoTV) certainly is a great idea. And I am going to watch that. Though I have doubts about the attribute "professional". Can you be a professional without being able to live from your profession? (And this is nothing which depends on strong players but on the playing population in general and their willingness to watch and spend money. It's economy.) Should such an illusion be nurtured in strong newcomers? Is it meaningful to be professional for some years? (I am quite sure that would be very harmful to the korean baduk scene if they introduce any such thing as demoting professionals to amateurs. Which parents would still encourage their kids to study baduk and nothing else, if they can expect that they will be pro from 25 to 30 and then move in with them again, without any income? I certainly would not.)

Cheers Tapir

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #10 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:52 pm 
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I agree with Helel. It's great to have such a league. But unless there is the money to support it you shouldn't call it professional. IMO to be called professional you need to earn at least several thousand dollars per year with playing go. So to support a professional league with 12 players should cost >100k$ per year.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #11 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:59 pm 
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if this project comes to life, put me first in the waiting list to get a related job (software development, administration...) :D

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #12 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Yea, the whole concept of a "pro" in go is quite odd, and I don't think it translates very well. What exactly is this group going to do? Will there be regular face-to-face games? Or will the games be held online? 12 players in a league means a lot of games, and I can't imagine them all getting together often; the cost of travel alone would be enough to require a fair amount of sponsorship.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #13 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:02 pm 
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First of all let me wish the organisers all the luck . (They will need it)

Their (internal) organisation is in principle their own internal responsibility.
As not strong enough we can only advice. (and maybe they don't like our advice anyway)

Having said all this the EGF has (and I am a member of a member organisation) also may decide on their relation with this new group.
And that can depent on internal structure (are they democratic) , respectability (do they account properly) and representability (does the EGF think they do represent the strongest european players)

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #14 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:32 pm 
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tapir wrote:
Which parents would still encourage their kids to study baduk and nothing else, if they can expect that they will be pro from 25 to 30 and then move in with them again, without any income? I certainly would not.)


I would certainly have my trepidations, as I would if my child wanted to be an actor, professional athlete or English professor, but you should know that indirect demotions do occur in CJK. Many professionals redirect their energies when they find that they can't rise above 1-3d and that they aren't winning enough to make a living from game fees. No one tells you that you have to leave, but sticking around seems like a worse and worse idea each year. Nonetheless, parents in these countries encourage their children or get out of the way as their children insist on devoting time to Go.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #15 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Yea, the whole concept of a "pro" in go is quite odd, and I don't think it translates very well. What exactly is this group going to do? Will there be regular face-to-face games? Or will the games be held online? 12 players in a league means a lot of games, and I can't imagine them all getting together often; the cost of travel alone would be enough to require a fair amount of sponsorship.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #16 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:04 pm 
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ok, it sounds like a few people did not actually read the link, before jumping to the wrong conclusions.

eurogopro.org wrote:
The European Professional Go Organisation will run a European Professional Go League, a year long competion that provides professional status for 12 top european players every year.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #17 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:05 pm 
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It's a pity, but EGF makes [=does] nothing for top players. And the situation in Europe is very bad, after losing main sponsors.


Yes, but some of us suspect that the antics and demands of some "top" players helped lose the sponsorship. And, anyway, what do top players do for the EGF membership?

But leaving that aside, it's time for tough love, or a reality check. To get some perspective, look back and imagine the Nihon Ki-in, say, trying to form itself by demanding that Japanese amateurs defer to them, pay them, organise events for them and find sponsors for them. In fact, the Nihon Ki-in professionals did all the leg work themselves, and took decades to turn it into something big.

The good news, I think, is that the European wannabe pros appear to have realised at long last that they have to take the same route. I wish them every success on their journey. By going it alone they have made the most important step. But they must stay somewhat aloof from the amateur world and must acquire the self confidence to sell their product. In 2011, for example, they would have every right to sell their attendance at the EGC for however much they can negotiate. I would also support them if they tried to convince international tournament sponsors such as Fujitsu that all European places in their events should go only to European pros.

However, I think the European pros also need to rid themselves of the notion that professional go is all about competing in tournaments. That's fine as an ideal, but if we look at how professional go developed in Japan in the 20th century, there were VERY few tournaments initially. A pro was often lucky to get one game a fortnight. Even today, many don't manage even one tournament game a week. Instead, even top pros have made a living by cultivating individual patrons and either playing exhibition games for them or giving teaching games. Other activities they are not too proud to undertake include writing or ghostwriting books, doing newspaper commentaries, teaching beginners in factories, or teaching budding pros. So far as I can see, not too many of the top Europeans have condescended to write books, or even articles for their own associations' journals, let alone undertake the other activities. Many just seem to want to hang around while amateurs organise tournaments for them. Their behaviour seems in sharp contrast to that of Oriental pros who have exercised their profession in the USA.

I know that's a probably unwelcome message for some, and the fact that even many Korean pros are currently living the nightmare of what happens when it doesn't work out must make it doubly depressing. But for those who don't want to wait around, they have one slice of fortune - it is possible to become a pro in an Oriental country.

Of course, if it doesn't work out here, the budding pros should be welcomed back into the amateur ranks - but on the same basis as every other EGF member.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #18 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:39 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

Of course, if it doesn't work out here, the budding pros should be welcomed back into the amateur ranks - but on the same basis as every other EGF member.


Are the tournaments of the EGF open to pros or only amateurs? If it's the latter, does that mean these players can no longer compete in the EGC or other major tournaments? I find this whole thing a bit confusing - the "pro" term, as I mentioned above, is a bit amorphous.

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #19 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Li Kao wrote:
But unless there is the money to support it you shouldn't call it professional.


If an amateur can support himself teaching go, is he a pro?

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 Post subject: Re: European Professional Go League
Post #20 Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:13 pm 
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this announcement says exactly nothing. there is only the number 12 and a year european professional mentioned. a LEAGUE is a seperate system much like dinerchteins insei league. It doesnt say anything beneficial to actually being a european professional except for the name. are there going to be ranks which you can earn? are there special events for those who wish to become professional? its all vague....

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