Korean opinion: EGC system

Jonas · **#41**

I only attended the EGC once in 2009 (gronningen) and played there as a 4kyu. I was paired with 3 asian players (2x jap, 1x Kor) and I really really enjoyed the cultural exchange. Analysing the game with Mr. Masashi is one of my treasured memorys when I think back

Therefore I think excluding all asians from takeing part in the main torunament would be a shame! Seperating the European Championship from the maintournament seems the best solution. I think an online qualifier with the top 32 europeans several weeks before the congress is a really good idea. The winner of the online qualifier is allowed to challange the euro-champion of the previous year.

topazg · **#42**

RobertJasiek wrote:

gowan, prize money is not the only, but just one of the aspects.

Quote:

I'm afraid that excluding the Asian players makes the people who manage European Go Congress look very petty indeed.

Why do you think so?

This should at least be obvious. It looks like "You're too good for us, and you're spoiling our fun. Go away" regardless of how it is intended.

The only way for it not to look like this is to have a separate European Championship and make sure that the "main" congress tournament is still open to the Koreans. Having the dates separate is in the interests of the European Championship anyway: If I was a European 7 dan, I'd choose the open over the championship any day to get the chance of such top level games, so the only thing that would suffer by hosting at the same time is you'd lose top Europeans from the championship, which would then risk it being a bit of a farce.

RobertJasiek · **#43**

Jonas, online go is very different from real world go. (E.g., players have very different quality of hardware equipment.) Therefore online qualification for real world finals is a bad idea.

RobertJasiek · **#44**

Nobody has suggested to make the main tournament closed. So why do several of you express a fear that it might?

If someone reads a wrong interpretation (like the one you suggest) into an EC system reform, then that is his problem.

Since you are not a 7d, your farce fear is immaterial.

topazg · **#45**

RobertJasiek wrote:

Jonas, online go is very different from real world go. (E.g., players have very different quality of hardware equipment.) Therefore online qualification for real world finals is a bad idea.

Ah, but Robert, real world Go is very different to online Go (e.g. players may not have the financial ability to afford getting to extra tournaments outside their own country). Both systems have natural handicaps for that player to be involved in a real world finals. Unless you are claiming that the game itself is somehow different, I find this a very weak argument. I suspect significantly more people are excluded by cost and difficulty of travel than they are by hardware equipment.

RobertJasiek wrote:

Since you are not a 7d, your farce fear is immaterial.

Nonsense. It's how I view the game, and if I do, someone else may as well. Unless you are saying that "unless you are yourself likely to be eligible for the championship, your opinion doesn't count", in which case why have this thread?

RobertJasiek · **#46**

Online / real world go: discussed often enough elsewhere.

Javaness · **#47**

RobertJasiek wrote:

gowan, prize money is not the only, but just one of the aspects.

Quote:

I'm afraid that excluding the Asian players makes the people who manage European Go Congress look very petty indeed.

Why do you think so?

It is sad that you forget the first post of this thread so easily Robert.

RobertJasiek · **#48**

1) I have not forgotten the first post.

2) I replied to the first post.

3) The first post is not by you, so I cannot know whether it expresses part of your opinion.

richardamullens · **#49**

breakfast wrote:

From: Sang-Dae Hahn
Adviser, KABA International affairs

About the idea of Catalin Taranu (and others) of creating the separated event for top Europeans (so they will not meet any Koreans)

I am startled to hear that such a concept has been considered. If it is actually carried out then it would be even worse. This idea goes against the spirit of what Baduk is. ...

I respect Professor Hahn's opinion and thank you to Breakfast for posting it here.

Professor Hahn visited our humble club (St Albans) with An YoungKil and Lee JungWoo - http://www.rhodamine.eu/~sagc/20070307.html . As a consequence we then had two women Korean 6 dan amateurs at our club for 6 weeks http://www.rhodamine.eu/~richard/diary/ ... _0036.jpeg http://www.rhodamine.eu/~richard/diary/ ... ridge.jpeg - friends of Oh Chi Min.

I too share Professor Hahn's disquiet at recent developments which I believe will undermine the friendly relationship between Korean and European players and discourage future visits by strong Korean players.

richardamullens · **#50**

Harleqin wrote:

LovroKlc: No one wants to ruin the EGC for the asian players; that is why we have this discussion!

Currently, the closed EC is somewhat ruined for the European players; that is why something might need to be changed.

I don't know what evidence you have for this statement. It seems that there are just a couple of strong European players who have voiced discontent that some Asians are stealing their prize money.

kokomi · **#51**

Helel wrote:

LovroKlc wrote:

I want to ask everyone of you who have the need of ruining the EGC for Koreans one question: Who do you think you are?

Who do you think you are? One of the Spice Girls?

kokomi · **#52**

Jonas wrote:

I only attended the EGC once in 2009 (gronningen) and played there as a 4kyu. I was paired with 3 asian players (2x jap, 1x Kor) and I really really enjoyed the cultural exchange. Analysing the game with Mr. Masashi is one of my treasured memorys when I think back

Therefore I think excluding all asians from takeing part in the main torunament would be a shame! Seperating the European Championship from the maintournament seems the best solution. I think an online qualifier with the top 32 europeans several weeks before the congress is a really good idea. The winner of the online qualifier is allowed to challange the euro-champion of the previous year.

at 4k, 4d or 4P, you are playing for different things.

kokomi · **#53**

richardamullens wrote:

I too share Professor Hahn's disquiet at recent developments which I believe will undermine the friendly relationship between Korean and European players and discourage future visits by strong Korean players.

No, it won't undermine anything, as long as Koreans are still eager to let everyone spell GO as bakud or something silimar and have not achieved so.
:twisted:

kokomi · **#54**

breakfast wrote:

From: Sang-Dae Hahn
Adviser, KABA International affairs

About the idea of Catalin Taranu (and others) of creating the separated event for top Europeans (so they will not meet any Koreans)

I am startled to hear that such a concept has been considered. If it is actually carried out then it would be even worse. This idea goes against the spirit of what Baduk is.

Baduk is a game of mutual respect and appreciation. Baduk has been promoting friendship and mutual understanding between Europe and Asian countries for a long time. It is also special because it crosses all boundaries of race and language. Denying players the opportunity to play based on race is not only discriminatory, but also highly anti-competitive.

There are also a great many problems with determining the boundaries of such a rule. Can Taranu himself play, as he is officially a professional representing Nihon-Kiin? If Asian Baduk associations had similar ideas to the Europeans that are being proposed, it would be worth noting that Taranu would not have been able to become a professional player at all. I am sure that he should consider allowances made for his sake in the past and reflect carefully on his current standpoint.

Having Asian guests play in the second division is unfair and absurd, both on the visiting players and also on the Europeans who have to contend with players whose strength is well above the limit of the division.

The chance to play against strong players is meant to be a joy and an experience. It is fair that they could only win open championship while you or Taranu wins the European championship. I am sure that many European players relish the challenge of strong opponents coming to compete. It is also unfair to deny them this opportunity.

When I had dinner with my students who participated in the last EGC, quite often they launched into laughter, especially about the European player’s habits, particulars and their personality. I am also certain that it was an experience that they will never forget. The excitement from the meeting European Baduk players and getting to know them through the EGC has left them with a lasting impression. They told me that they will study English harder to make better communications with Europeans in the future. They have already become pro-Europeans through cross-cultural experience. Are they going to stop Koreans experiencing it from now on?
Thank you for informing me this. I hope European players wouldn’t make such a non sense

A letter full of big words, race, discriminatory... so scaring :lol:

can any chinese or japanese pro goes easily to korea to play their pro tournaments, not to say win a title? :roll:

Would Hahn-ssi consider it a 'discriminatory'

Sang-Dae Hahn wrote:

They told me that they will study English harder to make better communications with Europeans in the future.

Maybe french won't be happy to hear it? :lol:

ok, jk.

azrael · **#55**

Why not create a seperate and independent closed championship to determine the European Champion (for Europeans only, I.e those who meets residency requirements). Qualification can be based on various Go events (i.e those about a certain grade and have to win at least 50% of their games at a European/World Go events) or choose the top X number of European players from the EGC. We can call the winner the 'European Champion' and the top European player at the EGC as the European Open Champion.

I guess I am proposing two champions but I think this is the only way to satisfy the people who do want Asian players to attend the EGC and those who wants a Champion not influenced by the Asians.

RobertJasiek · **#56**

Just for your reference, also currently there are the two titles European Open Champion and European Champion.

A seperate and independent closed championship is being suggested by the 16-0 vote (on last year's AGM) of letting it be affected by European-only games. The 21-0 vote wants it to be during the congress. Various system proposals suggest what you suggest.

azrael · **#57**

If there are already 'closed' Championships or those being proposed, then why all the fuss about the EGC?

I tend to agree that the EGC should be a fun filled tournament that is open to all comers including the Asians since historically it has attracted them. To fiddle with it and risk losing those Asian players without creating another tournament to attract them would be to the detriment of European Go. I am sure that players of all grades including Dinerchtein and Taranu could learn from ex insei and ex pros.

RobertJasiek · **#58**

azrael wrote:

If there are already 'closed' Championships or those being proposed, then why all the fuss about the EGC?

(I assume you mean EGC = EGchampionship rather than EGcongress.)

Apparently you have not read all earlier discussions. This is just a very short summary WRT your question:

1) Currently Open-EC and [Closed-]EC are held in the same tournament: the "main tournament" of the congress.
2) Currently top Europeans play fewer European-only and esp. top-European-only games than they (maybe with the exception of Dinerstein) want to play.
3) Currently the EC title (in the results after the last round) depends (at all or too much) on tiebreakers, which is disliked (esp. in compination with (2)).

It is especially unsatisfactory if the top European players after the last round still have not played all possible games against each other.

Quote:

To fiddle with it and risk losing those Asian players without creating another tournament to attract them

Therefore the standard idea is to create also another tournament, like my proposal of a Top Players Tournament. Maybe so far too few proponents of system proposals have expressed such a desire explicitly though.

Quote:

would be to the detriment of European Go.

An unsatisfactory determination of the Eu. Champion is some more so.

Quote:

I am sure that players of all grades including Dinerchtein and Taranu could learn from ex insei and ex pros.

At the same time, Dinerstein insists that the EC is not a tournament for teaching games. That he wants to learn from Koreans in the EC itself is a contradiction. A Top Players Tournament during the afternoon / evening can dissolve it.

azrael · **#59**

Quote:

Therefore the standard idea is to create also another tournament, like my proposal of a Top Players Tournament. Maybe so far too few proponents of system proposals have expressed such a desire explicitly though.

I would be in favour of this, provided it is not held at the Go Congress. I gather the strong Asians (the 7ds) would be pretty annoyed if they have spend alot of time and money to come here to play against 3/4/5 dans rather than the top Europeans.

The Go congress can used as a qualify where the top x number of European players would contend for the title at a latter date.

RobertJasiek · **#60**

azrael wrote:

Quote:

Top Players Tournament

I would be in favour of this, provided it is not held at the Go Congress. I gather the strong Asians (the 7ds) would be pretty annoyed if they have spend alot of time and money to come here to play against 3/4/5 dans rather than the top Europeans.

Current situation: The Korean 7d play players from 7d to 2d in the main tournament. Among the 7d opponents, quite some are also Korean 7d. During the evening side tournaments, the Korean 7d play also quite some weak(er) opponents.

Possible situation: The Korean 7d play players from 5d/6d to 2d in the main tournament. Among the 7d opponents, quite some are also Korean 7d. During the afternoon / evening, in the Top Players Tournament, the Korean 7d play in all rounds against only the top (ca. 10) Europeans (7d to 6d).

Therefore the possible situation provides the Korean 7d with MORE top European opponents than the current situation. Why are you against this improvement for the Korean 7d?

Korean opinion: EGC system

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