I think there is practically very little chance to initiate a professional system in Europe in a way that, you can't find elements of discrimination. When a system starts, there is relatively small money available. I would not expect anyone to toss a million Euro yearly to get the system started. Maybe after a generation that could happen. Dividing the money to many players would leave each such a small share that it is not worthwhile. When selecting a small number of players it is hard to avoid discriminating some unless you make a lottery.

Why? It is possible to qualify the same number of players per year without setting additional restrictions for age, number of years of residence of holders of a European citizenship etc.

***

BTW, the system has also good aspects:

- Using a maximal rating per period much relaxes uncertainties in the rating system, which would be significant if rating on a fixed date were used. (The German Championship also uses a maximal rating per period.)

- The Chinese Rules are pretty good (although not perfect and although it is a sponsorship accident that such rules are used).

If you care to propose a system for that, I bet I can find some form of discrimination there. for example one could play qualification in his home twon while another player might have to travel 400 km to the tournament.

Discrimination and disadvantages that can be avoided must be avoided. Such that cannot be avoided continue to exist. Those I have mentioned can be avoided easily by dropping the related conditions (it would have been even easier not to create those conditions). Concerning travel disadvantages, they cannot be avoided for real world tournaments, but they could be minimised, e.g., by minimising the number of qualification sites or mutually compensating the players' excess travel expenses compared to a player's average travel expenses.

I agree with the age restrictions. It wouldn't be fair for those 40 and under. Just consider the embarrassment of watching a 50 year-old Master destroy an 18 year old upstart who still lives at home with her mother - women are allowed, right?

And to John's point about productive investments in the future, longevity, and those who are of any true value (aka "benefit") to European Go, we could only expect 5 maybe 7 years tops of productive play with the 40+ crowd, especially with life expectancies and longevity as they are in developed countries these days. Can you imagine the spectacle of a 20-something having to sit across a table facing a 40-something on a gurney, hooked up to life support? That alone would clear the room.

Besides, Japan does it. What further justification is needed?

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Sponsorship is the main one. They're putting a lot of effort to train a younger generation to raise the level of go in Europe. In some ways, since they did an age limit at all, I'm surprised it was that high.

Japan, Korea, and China all have significantly lower age limits to become professional. Of course the competition is also much higher there.

I'm perfectly aware of the [discriminatory] reasons for the age limit...

Addendum: Is there any evidence that a sponsor has or would revoke their sponsorship if someone 45 or 50 years of age were included in such European tournaments? And if that evidence does exists, what were the reasons? Why exactly would a potential sponsor of a European Go tournament not sponsor the event because some participants might be over the age of 40?

I'm guessing the age discrimination thingy is a cultural carryover, the supposed effect of which has no empirical justification here in the West and is simply assumed without question like any myth. I could be wrong.

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

Why do you think that not the strongest Europeans can become European Professionals? Many of those qualified are the best players in their home countries, winning their national Championship, and in Europe. The strongest invited player was Ilya Shikshin and he is the top 5 in Europe after some asian players, the next strongest is already Lisy Pavol as top 9 (between him and Ilya Shikshin again some players from asia), then there is Antti Tormanen who also was invited but refused too, as top 12 in europe. Followed directly by Cornel Burzo as top 13 who accepted the invitation. The next one would be Zejist as top 14, but who refused it, followed by Thomas Debarre as top 16 in europe who accepted the invitation and so on. So I don't understand what you mean by the strongest europeans can't become european professionals? The only persons that come to mind are Alexandr Dinerstein and Catalin Taranu but both are already professionals.

1) Today's situation need not be tomorrow's. E.g., in future, there could be lots of very strong 40+ years old players.

2) Rating is no 1:1 mapping for strength in very important tournaments, such as championships or qualifications.

3) With the given system, we will not find out whether Europeans with non-European pro ranks (Juan, Dinerstein, Taranu etc.) are weaker or stronger than Europeans in the qualification tournament.

4) Excluding the most successful live European tournament player, Dinerstein, 7 times European Champion, makes it especially hard to determine whether he or those that may play in the qualifications are stronger.

The system is designed to keep the number of games between eligible and non-eiligble players small. Do you recall very frequent complaints about old European Championships - that there would be too few top European - European games? Now it becomes too few top eligible European - top non-eligible European games. Great mistake!

I think the last few EGCs let us know Dinerstein is no longer the dominant European player he once was.

Unlikely, and anyway the rules could be changed if circumstances made it necessary.



Up to four places are given to top finishers in the European Championship, and two were given based on a qualification tournament among the students in China. So there was plenty of room for people who are "strong in championships or qualifiers".



Not a goal of the system. There are plenty of other opportunities to meet those players and determine relative strength.



Although some players are not eligible for playing in this specific qualifier event, that does not mean they are ineligible to play in the grand slam tournaments. Do not confuse this specific purpose event with the wider CEGO setup.

I don't buy this argument. If a player is strong enough to qualify when he is over 40 years old, most likely he has been strong enough already when younger than 40.

I think the aim is to qualify two new players as European professionals, not to compare them to old professionals. I guess CEGO would be disappointed, if we would say that this player with Japanese, Korean and Chinese pro status qualifies as European pro instead of having a new player.

A federation is expected to serve its members. Serving non-members can be criticised as wasting the federation's resources except in small scale, when it can be considered advertising membership.

Most European countries have an EGF member organisation, but some don't. Those who don't may found an organisation, which can become EGF member. There is no discrimination there.

It is of little use to criticise the selection criteria for the 'professional qualifiers'. Whilst you can argue that it is not perfect, it is hardly idiotic. If you want to discuss something, the nature of the Grand Slam tournament system and or Bonus point tournaments might be more interesting. Clear details around this are not exactly available right now.

It is nice to see that the EGF has now published the selection criteria for sending players to China to study. The next period will begin in September. A year after the contract was signed, details are finally coming together.

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North Lecale

So, once again - what *is* an Euro Pro? Is there any material somewhere?
I have found some french sites, but cannot read french, so no use. I am sure that there is tons of material out there, everything worked out and documents, I just can't find it. In particular, what interests me is the following:

1> what *is* the Euro Pro? What are the benefits of becoming one, other than bragging rights?
2> Is that title for life? You cannot become one if you are over 40, but can you be one if you are over 40?
3> What does the title entails? A stipend from the organization, fee per game, what?
4> Will there be any title tournaments, like for asian pros?
5> Teaching opportunities and preferential treatment was mentioned, any details on that?

And stuff like that. I keep asking, but don't think anybody answered yet. Or have I missed it?
In any case - anybody can answer any of that or point me to a good link in english, polish, or german?

Thanks.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Let me try and answer a few of these points, as I understand them.


1. They are a certified professional, that's it.
2. It appears to be.
3. For the moment, it is mostly just a title.
4. There will be a grand prix circuit in EGF member countries for which a european pro has automatic entry rights
5. European professionals will be given first preference for selection for international tournaments in which the EGF has the right to nominate the European entry. Euro-pros will be given preferential access to paid teaching opportunities. (Note: It is not clear what those opportunities are, and who will pay the fee. For instance some european go congresses have refused to accept to pay for current professionals, who are european, to teach.)

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North Lecale

Open questions for me:

1) what exactly "preferential treatment for international tournaments/teaching opportunities" entails and

2) how the prize fund for the CEGO circuit is intended to be raised in the long run (mainly sponsorship, but not so unlikely to include subsidies by amateur events, following the model of the defunct eurocup?) and

3) what kind of EGF will be the result of the "business oriented operation mode" promised (still an European Go Federation by and for mainly amateur Go in general or a federation sustained by amateurs to the benefit of a few certified professionals) is currently rather nebulous.

Exactly!
And - how will it be enforced? Isn't it up to the organizers to invite whom they want? Will pressure be put on organizers to invite this one but not that one? What if a sponsor happens to have his own preference?

Also #1 - will the same consideration be given to pros accredited by other organizations? Some of them are pretty good teachers, would be a pity to undercut them, the average go-student will certainly not benefit from that. Some of those pros did a lot for Go in Europe, and will do even more in the future if treated properly. And some of the strong players might not be very good teachers at all, strength and teaching ability not always go hand-in-hand.

Also #2 - I seem to have a vague recollection that this whole idea has something to do with China. Is that a way to muscle-in on Europe?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Not sure what you mean with "muscle-in" (do I hear a negative connotation?), it is as "muscling-in" as the North American system is Korea muscling in. It is more like China and Korea taking up a bigger share in developing international Go these days after more work was done by Japan (and Mr. Ing) over decades. There is a significant subsidy from China now, but this is meant not as money we happily use up, but as an investment in a brighter and somewhat different Go future (not to yield interest, but it is not supposed to be just a money transfer).

Chinese Cultural Centres are supposed to play a major role in Go activities. In fact this has been going on for a while before this scheme, there already were tournaments with high profile visitors from China. Apparently the first grand slam tournament is scheduled for Easter 2015 in Berlin (Chinese Cultural Centre) according to Martin Stiassny (on the german DGoB-forum). There will be the China Cup for the general public at the same date and place as well.

EGF has about no means to enforce anything (apart from participation in international tournaments where EGF is represented as EGF). EGF is a federation of federations, when people did not care about the European Cup anymore tournaments stopped buying into that cup and it completely collapsed. That is why it is so strange, that there is not more consensus building happening now.

Sorry, did not mean to make any negative impressions, whatever happens I am sure it is for the good of the Go in Europe.

Although, come to think of it, now that you get my mind going in this direction, there might be some other ways to think about it. From the point of view of the Asian superpowers, Europe is not only a Go toddler to be nurtured and guided, but also a big potential market offering tremendous opportunities for profit, expansion, and ultimately control. I can see power-plays taking place to have a bigger share of this market, whoever acts first gains the most. Hehe.

Speaking of pros - there are no Chinese-accredited pros native to Europe, I guess. So what is happening? China is financing an organization to accredit "native" EuroPros, with strong ties to China I assume. These pros will get a preferential treatment (whatever that means) over the pros accredited by Japan and Korea. In the long run, there will be more and more of the EuroPros, and I guess as the system grows, they will get more and more preferential treatment. Just think about it... Because of this, the non-Chinese pros will slowly start getting pushed aside. Or will they?

Might be this is also why the deal is still so sketchy and yet already in place, and why there was so much "secrecy" at the beginning (as I remember) - not to keep it from other EGF members or to prevent any EGF-wide voting, but to keep it secret from J/K.

There is a lot of money that seems to be flowing from China, and knowing what I know of how a communist system operates, I cannot imagine there is no "agenda" behind that. I dunno, you started my mind going in weird directions...

Man, I see conspiracies behind every bush. This is what I get from reading L19 and all this whining about KGS admins, I guess.

Anyways. I am not saying this is bad or sinister or anything like that.
Europe does need a "sponsor" like that, and it just looks like China was the first to step up to the plate and recognize the potential. Good for them and good for Europe. Just wondering where does it all end up, that's all.


Then what does the phrase "preferential treatment" mean? This seems to be the *only* tangible perk I can see a EuroPro getting for his/her troubles, so it must mean something. And there must be some ways to enforce it. Or is it just words, for now, exact meaning to be decided in the future?

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!