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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #21 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Thanks @BlindGroup. I need to get some sleep and will look at your comments in the morning. I appreciate all go and parenting advice!

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Post #22 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:45 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh,

:w16: Maybe R5 first.

:w22: ( Maybe interesting to study B7 variations. )

:w24: B8. "Sacrifice 2." In the game, if you atari at E8, B can remove :w24: from the board.
But if you drop to B8 first, and atari at E8, B cannot remove the 2 W stones from the board! B must connect at C7. Your two W stones remain on the board, ready to be re-activated should the occasion arises.
Once a stone is taken off the board, it has zero aji left. Huge difference.

:b25: Remember B cannot get this very clean result, very good aji with one move, if you had dropped once at :w24: .

:w26: Remember if you had dropped once at :w24: ,
then you could've atari'ed at E8 in sente
(the 2 W stones staying on the board), and still play E11.

:b27: Slow.

:w28: Very big.

:w36: Before this descend (local big move),
did you first double check that you can handle :black: E3 ?
When B has massive power nearby, you must be very careful.

:b37: Big. You have to watch out for your group.

:w46: Slow, and good exchange for B. Don't do it now.
Maybe good to take care of your group (starting with D13, etc.)

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:48 pm 
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@BlindGroup
1. I agree. Mostly, I study by doing life and death problems and watching lectures from Dwyin and Nick Sibicky about direction of play and higher level strategy than joseki or fuseki sequences. The boys have been doing more of a mix, but have certainly had a lot of joseki in their studies.

2. This is something with which I'm struggling. I am trying to find a balance between establishing territory on the corners and sides, but not get shut out of the center. In the last couple of face-to-face games (not recorded, I think) my opponents were able to get a lot of points from territory in the center. In this game, when I chose to go for a wall and center influence on the bottom side, I thought, erroneously, that I would get territory and points in both right corners. I didn't realize I was still completely vulnerable to 3-3 invasion, especially after I had the stone at Q14 (which probably should have been played at R14 as you commented).


:b9: FWIW, Kogo's only offers C as a continuation.
:b11: perhaps I should play elsewhere? Maybe a corner enclosure like O3 on the idea that is still close enough to help the J4 stone.
:b15: in your continuation, I think If white cuts at B, then black d4, white f5, black e5 which then threatens to push through d5, so white has two local things to deal with and probably ok for black.
:b63: yep, greedily thinking I can get the whole side!

The sgf doesn't show the clock. I forget how much time we were using, I think it was 10min main time, + 5x0:30. As I noted, I burned through the main time quickly and then was in a rush for much of the game. My kids generously gave me +40 reverse komi. With that, I think I would have won if I'd strengthened the L4 wall of stones and not let them get killed. There were many opportunities, but I saved smaller groups or areas instead. I guess I didn't realize how weak that group was.

In any case, I clearly didn't make good use of it for any offensive purpose, so your point questioning the value of central influence is clear!

Again, thanks for the comments.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:21 pm 
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@EdLee, thanks!

At :w36: I don't understand. You're saying I should have played c2 instead?
I don't recall whether I analyzed black at e3, but it seems like I can deal with it pretty easily (after B3) by cutting off that stone at e4. I'm probably not being creative enough in possible moves for black, but variations I've looked at are hard for black to gain many liberties and I can stay ahead in capture races.

other points:

I hadn't seen :b7: before and didn't know that :w8: was a normal move. On review, we both thought making a base at R11 might be better. I wonder what I would have come up with if black had continued with a joseki there.

Again, I didn't realize that :w18: was a normal play and, on review, we thought maybe it should have been at c9. When black attached at d8, I wished I'd had a bit more separation with the d6 stone to attack more aggressively. Thanks for b7 idea, I didn't consider that.

What about C7? on review, that seems ok, too. In particular, since D9 has space to extend either up or to the center, it seems hard for black to attack that side, get something interesting facing the center, and keep the c9 cutting stone alive.

:w24: makes a lot of sense! That's a beautiful part of go: when some stones that deserve to be dead come back to haunt the opposing player. I know this is pretty elementary, but I now see how this links with the question of whether a group of stones are solidly connected or not. So, when the opponent's stones aren't solidly connected, a play to create aji is worth considering.

:w28: as you suggested with R5 back at move 16, I had been itching to play back in that corner for a while. Not sure if this was premature b/c left side group wasn't really safe yet.

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Post #25 Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:01 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh, you're welcome.
Quote:
At :w36: I don't understand. You're saying I should have played c2 instead?
No. In general, I'm a literalist: had I meant C2, I would've said it.
(C2 is strange shape; connect directly at D3 is better.)
Quote:
I don't recall whether I analyzed black at e3, but it seems like I can deal with it pretty easily (after B3) by cutting off that stone at e4.
I meant literally what I said: if you had read it out, good; just be careful when B is very strong nearby.

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Post #26 Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:16 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh,
jgr314 wrote:
other points:

I hadn't seen :b7: before and didn't....

Again, I didn't realize that :w18: was a normal play

What about C7? on review, that seems ok...
Since you have more than one game up for review, and more than one reviewer,
things can get confusing.

I didn't comment on :b7:, :w8:, :w18:, etc...

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Post #27 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:29 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Josh,
jgr314 wrote:
other points:

I hadn't seen :b7: before and didn't....

Again, I didn't realize that :w18: was a normal play

What about C7? on review, that seems ok...
Since you have more than one game up for review, and more than one reviewer,
things can get confusing.

I didn't comment on :b7:, :w8:, :w18:, etc...


Sorry for the confusion. I know you didn't comment on those moves, those were just my own notes from the same game. Since you didn't mention them, I concluded that they were normal/ok moves and it was interesting to me that our post-game review focused on those instead of the things you flagged.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #28 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:58 am 
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A game from this weekend with our own comments:



We didn't have time for an immediate post-game review, so we turned it into a letter writing exercise. Here is the exchange:

Jate: Dear Daddy, thank you for playing GO with me. Your move 82 was great. I didn't expect that you would play such moves because it pushes into my territory. When I played 83, you kept pushing into my territory with 84. One move I would do differently is 14. I would have played at 102 (Q11) because move 14 leaves the group on the upper right weak. Love, Jate

Note: I think this failure to finish the joseki was because I had misunderstood/remembered a comment from an earlier game about a side move extending from a similar joseki. I will go back and look at the differences.

My reply: Dear Jate, what do you think I should have done differently with my 3-3 corner invasion? That didn't work at all and left you with a lot of territory around the 17 stone (J17).

Jate: Dear Daddy, Regarding your question about your 3-3 invasion, it was fine because it lives with ko, but move 70 should have been at 73. Then I would play under 70 and then you play 70, so it is ko, but you could play 64 @ 65 like in the joseki Jin taught you. Love, jate

This is what he is saying:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Me: Dear Jate, Interesting. What do you think would have been the best way to invade or reduce your territory around J17?

Jate: Dear Daddy, There are many places to invade or reduce my territory, which are: F17, G17, F16, G16, J17, J16 and L16. And the best time to invade my territory is move 18. Because if you don't invade, I will get a big territory. But actually you should invade my territory with move 16 at J17. Love, Jate


Attachments:
jgr314-jinjate.sgf [5.88 KiB]
Downloaded 133 times
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Post #29 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:54 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh,
Quote:
Since you didn't mention them, I concluded that they were normal/ok moves and it was interesting to me...
When I have my games reviewed, I treat every un-commented move as "TBD/the jury is still out". :blackeye:

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Post #30 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Hi Josh,

:w14: If you make the exchange :w12: - :b13: ,
then it's a good idea to follow-up afterwards ( R11 is an option, like :b9: ).
Otherwise, play :w14: directly, without the exchange :w12: - :b13: .

Without the exchange :w12: - :b13: , your :w10: is much lighter, easier to deal with. After the exchange :w12: - :b13: , you've committed a lot more; now you need to take care of it.
Quote:
One move I would do differently is 14. I would have played at 102 (Q11) because move 14 leaves the group on the upper right weak.
Yes. It'd be good if you can identify the other position; then we can look at the difference(s).

:b15: B makes you pay for your :w14: tenuki.

:b17: Q14 is a natural follow-up.

:w26: Helps B and hurts your own corner. J4 is a natural move.

:b29: M3 is a natural move.

:w34: Take in sente.
After W takes, if B still drops to N1, would you then spend a move at M1 ?
Hopefully no. :) But that's the shape in the game.
:w44: Feels slow.

:b45: Life, but feels slow. K6, etc.

:w46: Follow-itis. Very slow. C17 neighborhood is huge.

:b59: Slow, timid. J10 a local candidate.

:w60: Slow.

:w62: Slow.

:w70: A normal sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | . O X . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 3 4 . .
$$ | . . O X . 6 .
$$ | . 7 O X . . .
$$ | . O X 1 8 . .
$$ | . X 2 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

:b71: B missed a kill:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Clean kill
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 . . . .
$$ | . 3 O X . . .
$$ | O 4 O X . . .
$$ | . O X . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

The game move :b71: fails:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B W lives
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 4 6 . . .
$$ | . 5 O X . . .
$$ | O . O X . . .
$$ | . O X 2 . . .
$$ | . X 3 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
( This corner is worth this game, for both B and W. )

( ...skipping... )

:black: 127 Q2.

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Post #31 Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Dear EdLee,

as always, thanks for the guidance, especially the upper left corner. I will go study variations and experiment with it.

:w14: I'd mis-typed Jate's post-game review. He wrote that he would have played at R11, as you noted and the basic joseki.

:w34: My play at M1 was silly. I don't know what I was thinking.

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Hi Josh, have a nice and safe Tuesday. :)

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #33 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:56 am 
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Recent game, 12k vs 1k, played even.

Comments on black play especially welcome.

This is not really a family rivalry game. I can't keep up with my sons anymore.


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Post #34 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:32 am 
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Hi Josh,

Maybe consider what B got out of these moves/exchanges:
:b55:, :b57:, :b67:, :b83:, :b85:, :b87:

:black: 103 G7

:black: 105, :black: 109: Why ? After :black: 103, these are no longer cutting stones.
Dragging out this heavy chunk doesn't help your M5, R10 groups.

:black: 107 Locally, what does the exchange ( :black: 107 - :white: N18 ) do for B ?
If anything, push at N18 first. Globally, too small.

:black: 109 candidate: L10, etc.

:black: 117 candidate: K10, etc.

:white: 118 Game very difficult for B.

To consider:
- Contact fight (e.g. shortage of libs: :black: 103 ) ;
- Important/unimportant stones (e.g. cutting/non-cutting stones: :black: 105, 109 ) ;
- Global evaluation (e.g. :b55:, :b57:, :b67:, :b83:, :b85:, :b87:, :black: 105, 109, 117 ) ;
- Example: awareness of weak groups, groups in trouble (e.g. :black: 109 -- M5, R10 groups ) ;
- Correct handicap can help toward both W & B having to fight until the very last moves.
( i.e. fair game for both, from start to finish )


This post by EdLee was liked by: jgr314
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Post #35 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:30 pm 
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BTW:

The most recent game isn't showing up for me, and as far as I know I haven't made any changes to my browser (Firefox on Linux Mint).

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Post #36 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Post 10 wrote:
something wrong with the link to download the SGF in the frame that contains the games. I couldn't download either of them
Post 35 wrote:
The most recent game isn't showing up...(Firefox on Linux Mint).
More data points:
- iOS Firefox (9.3): "There was a problem retrieving the game data" of post 33's SGF link ;
- iOS Safari: displays post 33's SGF link OK ;
- OSX Firefox (56.0.2) displays post 33's SGF link OK ;
- OSX Safari (9.1.3) displays post 33's SGF link OK.

Raw SGF: (reliable way, IMO)
Post 11 wrote:
These games are on KGS, so I just use the links to the KGS archives.
Hi Josh, I highly recommend to embed the original, raw SGF, instead of any links.

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Post #37 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:47 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Josh, I highly recommend to embed the original, raw SGF, instead of any links.

Ah, I hadn't read that far in the how-to-post-sgf post: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=833
Including the raw sgf is actually easier than what I've been doing.

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Post #38 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:01 am 
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Most of a game from yesterday. To my (20k) eyes, I think white was already comfortably ahead when recording stopped and the unrecorded remaining moves didn't change that (W+res).


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Post #39 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:02 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh, were you :black: ? :)

It's interesting "casual game" is in Japanese カジュアルな手合い. :)
( editing... trying to figure out... technical issues with SGF :) )

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Post #40 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:20 pm 
Judan
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Hi Josh,

:b12: Splitting W's thin shape is OK,
and probably a good idea, as long as you are aware
a messy fight starts, and you have to take care of all your groups
( top left corner, and sides ).

:b18: The sequence matters. If you turn now, which is not small,
W can happily capture your stone in a ladder
with G16, and make good shape for himself.
You can take the local shared vital point yourself: G16.
If W connects underneath, then you can still get the turn;
but the resulting W shape is not as good as if W captures with G16 himself.

:b20:, :w21: Before you bump your head against W with this exchange,
consider if you can or want to cut at F9 on :b22: .
If your plan is to "push but not cut" at F9, consider
if there are alternatives that give better results for B, globally.

:b22: Again, if you cannot or don't want to cut at F9,
consider alternatives (e.g. C10).

:w23: Proverb 'hane at the head of two'.
W gets this proverb twice here.
It means you probably did something wrong (or missed something) previously.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W In general, not good for B. Could B have done better? (Sometimes, no.)
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O X X O . .
$$ . . . O O . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

Notice on top, W also has a shape with 'hane at the head of two', twice.
But there, W can capture G17 (with G16 ladder),
whereas here, you cannot easily capture F10 :white: .

:b26: Compare this result v. you taking C10 yourself on :b20: or :b22: .

Important reminder: the problem is not :b12: .
The problem is after :b12: , and before :b26: ,
B messed up this local fight and got a bad result here.

:b40: Before you pulled back, did you read B G10 atari:
if W connects at H11, and you push at G9,
what's W's liberties situation ? ( To make use of :b38: . )

:b44: Which atari (if any) gives B the best global result ?
Did you ask yourself this before deciding on :b44: ?

:w43: Take a step back and study this board.
- B's resulting shape from this local fight is quite miserable:
it's good to review how B got this result;
- Is B B15 atari sente ?

:b46: G14.

Re: :w27: If you find yourself (as :black: ) in a similar situation:
( 'hane at head of two', thrice! )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W In general, not good for B.
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . O . . . . .
$$ . O X . . . . .
$$ . O X . . . . .
$$ . . O X X O . .
$$ . . . O O . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]
In the review, ask if B could've done better.
During the game, plan ahead; see if you can avoid this shape.
( Sometimes, unfortunately, no. )

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