It is currently Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:01 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #81 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:53 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 580
Liked others: 41
Was liked: 135
Rank: 6-7k KGS
I would have tried splitting White at E12 with :b27:.

Obviously there's a reason why you're all stronger than I am.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #82 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:13 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Fedya, if you do that then it's a good exchange and white will play around 27 and gets both these good points. Compared to black playing at 26 himself that kosumi comes out much more slowly.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #83 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:04 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7685
Liked others: 2059
Was liked: 2697
FWIW, I think that White has the edge after :b25:. I. e., Black is ahead on the board by less than 10 pts. As for tewari, both players are over concentrated in the top left, but I don't think much of Black's second line plays. Sonoda had to foresee this position by :w18:, if not earlier. I expect that he was OK with it. I expect that Kiyonari was OK with it, too. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #84 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:11 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Regarding the top left sequence: a minor detail, but I'd like to be able to make the following 1-2 corner exchange if possbile before black gets strong there. Perhaps before wedging is the right timing, though it's possible black could play differently afterwards trying to make 1-2 bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . O 4 . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . X 3 X . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The reason is afterwards I worry black may be able to answer more efficiently on the outside as going into the corner might be dead anyway (d18 loses power because of marked black stone, it's not totally useless).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X # X X O . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . X O . O O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Leads to this kind of life and death, black using marked stones well. Didn't read everything, white could try other things like coming out or a attachment and it's bad aji for black, but kill seems plausible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 9 5 . 7 . # O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 . 1 X # X X O . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | 8 3 O , . X O . O O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #85 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:17 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 199
Liked others: 19
Was liked: 215
Rank: UK 2d Dec15
KGS: mathmo 4d
IGS: mathmo 4d
I think that's not just a minor detail, but a valid point, and the only way for b to resist seems to be c14 immediately in response. I don't think a works locally yet. Initially I thought there was a potential ko if W comes out, using a, but where B gets the corner and plenty on the outside first, but now I think it is still unconditionally dead. The aji seems worst if W starts with d14 and W resists with d13 rather than c15, but I think it still dies with the B19 tesuji. If nothing works, w can only use the d13 or b13 sente.

The 1-2 exchange will affect the ko variation slightly but it doesn't seem to change ko threat count and the exchange tends be normal fare if W wins the ko and good for W if W loses it.

On the other hand, if W gets that good exchange, w's shoulder hit in the game would become ajikeshi, and a more direct invasion around C8 becomes more plausible, so his strategy would have to change. Or at least W would extend after the shoulder hit rather than jumping. Since W's follow ups to block at C11 or turn at E12 become more powerful with that helping stone. Though W's weak ponnuki above remains a liability if B keeps pushing up to fight, but at least when w gets C11, B is sacrificing a lot of territory to fight, and the C16 stone may still help if W gets B12.

Perhaps for this reason, I increasingly like B's initial response to the shoulder hit, and feel uncomfortable for W to give up points like this, and only start to dislike b's play at move 33.

Regarding H15, I'm still not sure if I would rather it at J17 or if I feel the F17 invasion is bad shape (better at D16 maybe?). If H15 is at J17, the local efficiency is ok for W since B is overconcentrated, but W takes gote while giving up corner aji. Though W may have a better chance to get the 1-2 exchange in later.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #86 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:01 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Yesterday I played my first European team league game for several months, so time for an update. But first, back in October 2016 when I started this journal I said:

Uberdude wrote:
So my goals are:
- at least play in if not win British Championship title match next year
- get 2400 rating
- get solid 5d KGS from non-blitz

So I did make the final of the championship, but lost to dhu. I didn't actually mind much as being a new champion means he gets to go to the WAGC (if I won I wouldn't; it'd be some weaker player). Yet again I got close to 2400 but not past it (2395). And I've not played on KGS, nor done tsumego like I said I should (analysing new ideas from AlphaGo is more interesting!).

Image

So here's my European league game against Jostein Flood 3d (former 5d) of Norway:



Synposis:

Quote:
I was black and started off with the AlphaGo (and 19th century) idea that approaching both his 3-4 points to prevent shimaris and then tenuki-ing was good. He then started some forceful play against my lower right corner and I crawled a bunch of times on the 3rd line which didn't feel great but allowed it me to cut and start a good fight, however he wisely sacrificed 3 stones which were small now, but then saved them again when I tried to make a forcing move. He immediately activated his r9 stone (I think tenuki was better), so I let him live on the right side with the option to capture the 4 stones back in sente.

Next I pulled out my top left approach stone. He played a classic squeeze tesuji to capture me, but I used the aji to surround his corner. I used a lot of time trying to work out the best move order, and entered overtime on move 64. I rather messed up and, although I saved my captured stones, the group wasn't yet alive and he got a strong outside as I got horribly squeezed again.

His move 88 was maybe overly solid, so I got sente to sabaki with my bottom left approach stone, using a 5th line attachment of AlphaGo. He took the corner, so I had to make shape on the outside, and ended up living by connecting with points along the lower side.

He then had a large centre moyo, and I a top side moyo. He played on the right edge, aiming at some weaknesses of my stones there, but I played to sacrifice them and consolidate the top side and it worked out fairly well. He started poking around at its weak points and, with an uncharacteristically sensible decision for overtime, I let him make a sizeable reduction in exchange for solidifying the rest of the moyo and reducing his centre as I figured that left me ahead. There was a bit of bad aji inside my top right which he tried to use, but he resigned when that died with a cute belly attachment tesuji (he should have played a bizarre 2-2 empty triangle himself to live, but I would still have enough).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #87 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:54 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Review/questions on above game:
- move 17: k16, also thought about g15 for grander scale moyo and makes him need to spend move to quell c15, but if he does so tenuki seems bad when he k16 invades. But maybe this would let him find a good time to g15 or g16 and swallow c15 big scale. This seemed good with q7 press plan moyo building as miai with saving c15.
- move 18: seems he didn't like me to press, didn't expect this one as turns the big shimari into territory. Is this technique more applicable when the r6 stone is weaker without r9 already?
- move 27: too obedient? I also though about p2/o2, so he gets r5 in sente and I capture at s5 for good endgame: giving s6 in sente makes r9 too close and I still have a shape attack at p6.
- move 30: is this a good move? Embarrassed to say it surprised me. f4 looking good.
- move 33 etc: crawling here didn't seem good with his left side framework, but I wanted to save my stones in sente (and make his turn gote) to cut.
- move 40: I had spent some time reading the fight if he connects and it seemed good for me, so a good dodge and makes pushing bad. But I can't see a better move order, e.g. if I cut before last crawl then he probably saves so he gets L3 in sente and I cry.
- move 41: Glad I found this move, just q6 not great
- move 42: I expected him to answer so I was happy to r8.
- move 44: too early? He has other ways to use this, like o9 in sente. How about tenuki like top left. Chris (board 2) suggested c4 and I wasn't really sure how to handle that (other than tenuki and pretend to be cool like AlphaGo).
- move 47: Sensible or slack? Letting him live on side and capture 4 stones in sente to get sente for left side was clearer than the fights. Somewhat sad though that after I capture the 4 stones q7 gap means white lower side wall is not cut, so no attacking prospects on it, but maybe that is a dream.
- move 51: here or lower left? I didn't really know what to play in lower left now: my plan was to f5 if he k3 turns to overconcentrate the lower side, but no plan for now. Plus after my k16 I figured he owed move on top left.
- move 55, better unplayed? But if I don't there is a chance he gets b14 in sente and then if I cut ataris underneath.
- move 59: here or b17? Because I cut he can't easily break through, and I thought centre was important in this game so grow my top moyo whilst reduce his centre. If I slide I don't like his g16 to separate in sente.
- move 65: I actually didn't realise he can safely hane.
- move 69: trying to be more efficient and bully the corner without cashing b14 aji, but too much? Even if he connects and answers b14 on outside corner is still alive.
- move 74: I felt sad now as even though I captured his 2 stones I wasn't alive. Didn't expect him to make this trade but it looks good for him. So what's better? b14 for 69, he answers, then g12 and later I have c18 e18 in sente?
- move 79: :(
- move 88: too honte from him? Though I can now pull out the stone and he couldn't g13 like before thanks to e10 atari. How about c4 to make things hard for me.
- move 91: AlphaGo funsies, just playing sabaki by instinct as 15 moves in a minute.
- move 110: too honte again? I feared he tries to kill me harder. 114 also looks mistake as helps me make eyes if he can't win ko.
- move 125 etc not sure if something better, but live by connecting was easy to read and burned overtime stones.
- move 135 I briefly considered tenuki around k12, but let him atari and split in sente can't be good, and centre is miai from top or right side.
- move 136: As I still got to play k12 I think this could be wrong direction, maybe he should play around L12 and then if I come in around m/n9 he can reduce my top side.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #88 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:33 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1070
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 148
Was liked: 429
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
Uberdude wrote:
- move 18: seems he didn't like me to press, didn't expect this one as turns the big shimari into territory. Is this technique more applicable when the r6 stone is weaker without r9 already?


I don't like the exchange for White, because his influence is not working well with the stone at F4. Previously F4 put a stake into the lower side, then he lets you make a solid group at the lower side.

Uberdude wrote:
move 40: I had spent some time reading the fight if he connects and it seemed good for me, so a good dodge and makes pushing bad. But I can't see a better move order, e.g. if I cut before last crawl then he probably saves so he gets L3 in sente and I cry.


Once your stones at the bottom have a lot of liberties, capturing these stones becomes smaller, so why did you cut at 39? Using your sente to play elsewhere (e.g. activating R11) seems more logical.

But then when he saves his stones again at 42, all your stones are working again and you get a good result, especially with the aji on those 4 stones. I don't get how these 3 stones could be so important to White.

Uberdude wrote:
- move 74: I felt sad now as even though I captured his 2 stones I wasn't alive. Didn't expect him to make this trade but it looks good for him. So what's better? b14 for 69, he answers, then g12 and later I have c18 e18 in sente?


I expected atari from the other side. The bamboo will only prevent White to have sente on the left side, but in return White will spend a move less here. So the "honte" at 88 is almost a consequence of this atari.

Quote:
- move 91: AlphaGo funsies, just playing sabaki by instinct as 15 moves in a minute.


Aren't you overplaying here? You can reduce bottom and centre. I admire your sabaki capability but White could probably have fought harder. I think there were safer routes to victory.

Quote:
move 136: As I still got to play k12 I think this could be wrong direction, maybe he should play around L12 and then if I come in around m/n9 he can reduce my top side.


I think White is lost whatever he tries now. Only a severe invasion of the top can reverse the tables, but his influence doesn't reach that far and you are quite resilient there.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #89 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Knotwilg wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
move 40: I had spent some time reading the fight if he connects and it seemed good for me, so a good dodge and makes pushing bad. But I can't see a better move order, e.g. if I cut before last crawl then he probably saves so he gets L3 in sente and I cry.

Once your stones at the bottom have a lot of liberties, capturing these stones becomes smaller, so why did you cut at 39? Using your sente to play elsewhere (e.g. activating R11) seems more logical.

But then when he saves his stones again at 42, all your stones are working again and you get a good result, especially with the aji on those 4 stones. I don't get how these 3 stones could be so important to White.


I cut because his shape was weak and I wanted to attack his 2 space extension on the right (as compensation for the crawling), so it is using r11 to attack (if white's 2 space is weak then probably I can solidify the gap above r11). The cut's not really about those 6 points, but disconnecting. Problem is that's not easy to do without starting with that cut that's now on small stones. If I'm in a bad position now it seems his n4 was a good move, and thus my s2 was wrong.

Knotwilg wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
- move 74: I felt sad now as even though I captured his 2 stones I wasn't alive. Didn't expect him to make this trade but it looks good for him. So what's better? b14 for 69, he answers, then g12 and later I have c18 e18 in sente?

I expected atari from the other side. The bamboo will only prevent White to have sente on the left side, but in return White will spend a move less here. So the "honte" at 88 is almost a consequence of this atari.

Sorry, didn't understand this.

Knotwilg wrote:
Quote:
- move 91: AlphaGo funsies, just playing sabaki by instinct as 15 moves in a minute.

Aren't you overplaying here? You can reduce bottom and centre. I admire your sabaki capability but White could probably have fought harder. I think there were safer routes to victory.

Maybe, but I felt bad after that left side sequence (didn't think I was leading), and wanted to play the 5th line attach anyway (and had read some sequences earlier which was useful to get lots of overtime stones down quickly). Unless white can answer it with kick in corner (removing sabaki chances there) and then I'm still in trouble after having another move in centre it's unlikely to become mochikomi, and even if bits die I can try to find some way to use them in a reduction. Or is e4 a good answer to the attach making 3-3 and bulge impossible? Solid, but I can still use my stone as part of reduction operations if connecting at e5 is too heavy.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #90 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:50 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Last night I had a rather fun/interesting game in the European league.

Quote:
The opening was Alpha/Leela Zero inspired (I've recently been studying with the Lizzie interface, highly recommended!), with a kiai-filled tenuki fest in which I ignored a double approach on my 4-4 to press and surround his group. We then had a bit of fuseki on the top side, I took sente instead of the honte defence when he invaded my 4-4, plus a big knight to resurrect my 4-4 stone that was surrounded. Rather than pulling out his cutting stone to start a fight, he extended on the side so I loosely netted it. We had a bit more opening type stuff with him playing territorialy, so I played two attachments to develop the centre, he plopped in a reduction stone on tengen and I probed to see if he'd give me territory or keep centre access to help his reduction. He opted for the former, so he jumped in further to the moyo, but with a big knight move instead of the one-space jump I expected. So I cut it, he jumped out with half the group to safety, but I got a thick shape in the centre and felt good as I'd switched my moyo from upper to lower side. When I grew this, he played a surprising yose move (s15) so I surrounded more, he played a nice shoulder hit reduction but extended one too many times meaning I played a thin net, which ended up capturing him thanks to a cute little tesuji I just managed to find in overtime. He then failed to kill my corner and resigned.




Some detailed commentary and AG/LZ review:

The lower right approach instead of patient knight move answer in lower left is hardly a new idea, but it being clearly superior is an AlphaGo idea I've embraced (maybe some individual pros thought it, checking a pattern search Kim Suchang and Cho Hunhyun liked it), LeelaZero #139 agrees. The idea is obviously that white thinks the press is bigger and more painful to ignore than the double approach to 4-4 (the natural "Hey, you tenukid my move!" idea) which AlphaGo Teach thinks is a significant mistake (wants to answer approach with knight move or high one space pincer). So when black double approached I pressed as AGT suggests (if he covers at e5 I'm happy to cover at p3), LZ #139 prefers to answer the double approach but I suspect as she improves she will come to agree with AG about press. AG's suggested answer to the press when you really want sente, as here, is interesting: the r4 kosumi; if crawl and jump white gets sente to play with the 4-4. So in my game black resisted that and crawled twice and then surrounded at e5, a shape you normally don't want to allow (but which my wife with her contrary style likes to allow, more on that later). AGT doesn't give this line but I presume it prefers white, it's similar to a Master vs pro game in which Master nonchalantly allowed the same surround (by move 27 AGT says black is down to 30% win). The idea seems to be the e5 surround isn't so amazing give white's nice profit elsewhere (even though black still lived) and that you can still live in the corner fairly large later and the black wall's value might not be so great (which is why I then played c13, corner-obsessed LZ wants to live in upper right or lower left). (LZ thinks s3 should be s4, it did make it easy for me to tenuki.)

Unsurprisingly LZ doesn't like my side move at k17 (-2%), I expect AG wouldn't either but I still have some fondness for such weak human moves. Black's immediate 3-3 struck me as premature (I thought he might finish off lower left 3-3, LZ wants to n17) as k17 means I can reasonably omit the honte capture and take sente to live in the lower left, LZ agrees -4%. LZ says f4 should be e4 which is what I expected and have seen in bot games when they live in this corner later. I thought black's c10 might be soft (vs e15, though I figured I could handle that fight) as it allowed me to "have my cake and eat it" of living lower left and capture d15 cutting stone, but LZ says it's ok, but not a huge fan of my bad-aji net (d11 press best for efficient swallowing up, or e15 honte).

p17 is a traditional human territory-closing move, but LZ doesn't like it, prefers r7 to ask eye questions of my wall and make use of s4; and then wants me to r13 attach instead of simple q10 extension. s5 surprised me as a premature yose move (my s4 isn't sente, could make sense if it was) that strengthened me (he lost invasion aji) but maybe he thought it overconcentrates me, LZ -5%. LZ agrees with m17, seems pretty traditional. I thought about g3 cut here but didn't like tenuki or h4 answer, but went for d10 attachment because those are cool these days (LZ likes it). I thought he would probably hane but he was soft/solid/patient again with extend, LZ initially extends then hanes. The plus for him was he got sente when I pulled back and I expected him to reduce at l15 or k16 as this seemed miai, but LZ likes his h3 defence. So I attached again for the lols and there didn't seem much else to do (LZ agrees).

LZ agrees strategically with the expected reduction, but thinks tengen was too shallow, but even if deeper thinks I can patiently answer one space behind to defend the territory. I thought about k11 attach to wall off the top territory (expect lots of extends, if he hanes I cut, LZ likes) but wasn't confident of being so passive given all black's solid territory (I suppose LZ is confident of keeping a 5 points lead, I'm not) so r13 attached to see if he would give me some centre kikashi to cut off that escape route in which case I might try to attack tengen (but not so easy as not deep). LZ says r15 was soft but he got sente to go further into the moyo. LZ likes his big knight move even though I can cut it, if one point jump it says just kosumi answer to defend the territory is enough! LZ says L13 dodge was good (I focused on his k11 block and then cut being good for me, considered L12 a bit, should read broader but it's not like dodging refutes my move) but n13 soft, should hane even though I then wedge and cut and fight. Interestingly it initially (2k playouts liked my thick l10 but then at 10k prefers h14 (by 1%) to defend the top territory; even though black did then reduce the top a fair bit I stayed connected and I prefer the centre thickness.

LZ doesn't think of my m12 peep (prefers g11 which I considered but decided too dame even though good topologically), which I played to avoid a messy fight if L11 cut, she shows this is fine for me but 50+ moves long so I don't mind playing slightly lossy peeps to avoid such variations. c5 was decent but she prefers a move in lower centre: j7 rather than the k7 I played later. I think c5 is good for me because now that h3 is defended black b4, which morally should be a gote sequence, could lead to me messing up and dying in the corner if I tenuki afterwards (and giving b4 in sente is too sad), so reducing opportunities for me to blunder in overtime is a good game strategy. I expected black d5 as sente for corner pain so was pleased he gave me sente again with e8 but LZ says it's a fine move.

I'm pleased I identified the right area of the board with k7, though LZ prefers j7 by about 2%; I was being cautious of the k10 aji. Black then played an inexplicable yose move at s15 (but only -4%, I'm at 90% now and did feel happy in the game), I suppose I have the t15 kosumi sente yose tesuji (didn't see this at time) but I expected something around o11 (LZ's move) or k4, maybe he thought these were still miai? L6 was indeed a nice reduction point, but my k4 was indeed a good move (I could have played it instead of m7 push, but I did that to make my 2 stones into a stronger 3 and give black a chance to go out, but his natural local shape n6 was too much and let me pounce with k4. I was in overtime and didn't expect this to be a clean kill, and LZ says he can get out with L4 but I get some nice profit on lower side. In the game l2 tesuji means j4 wasn't sente on lower 2 stones (LZ prefers firmer h7 atari over h8 net) so then black dies and it's game over.

So overall I'm pleased with how the game went, though black's rather slack play meant he didn't challenge me to prove my moves were ok (e.g. not activate d15, or try to punish loose f14, s5, s15). This weekend is the British Challenger's league, I'm not sure yet how seriously I'll play and how much to fool around with crazy bot ideas, but this game has encouraged the latter. Some of the players though I know would put up more of a fight (even if they are overall weaker than Martin Li) so maybe slow and steady conventional play has more win chance. I'm there to have fun though... :)


This post by Uberdude was liked by: dfan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #91 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:15 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Over the last few days I've been doing some LeelaZero-assisted go problems and reviews with my wife (Sai, yes really, she's about 1d). She's not really played go for the past few years and finds competition stressful. She has quite a contrary, fighting and un-textbookish style which meant her teachers would dismiss her moves as bad. Sometimes I think they were right, but sometimes they were wrong and she likes that LeelaZero often seems to say her moves are actually good :) . To take an example, a problem from the Kiseido problems for dan players books, on opening/middlegame. I've long had doubts about the correctness of the answers in books like these (particularly in opening vs life & death or tesuji where the answer relies less on judgement, the blurb says compiled by Tadao Sakamaki and Park Michizumi, who are these? translated by Rob van Zeijst 7d), more so now that we know even top pros make loads of bad moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The book gives this shoulder hit as the answer, saying if 2 is at a then black jumps to b.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . a 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But Sai says black is dreaming if he thinks white will be so obedient as she would answer 2 here. But that when she suggested such moves of tenuki-ing a shoulder hit her teachers would say you have to answer the shoulder hit (with block or push). I don't know if she is accurately interpreting and reporting their teaching, but I wouldn't teach that. If it was a 10k student I might simplify it to that, but for a 1d pre-AlphaGo I would say block or push is normal and tenuki is kinda wacky so probably don't do it but maybe ok if you have a special plan, and post-AlphaGo more readily condone tenuki. So we fire up Lizzie and take a look. Sure enough, LZ says 1 is a mistake, and her 2 is the best answer, by about 5% over block/push :) . I don't think we needed super-human bots to tell us this, I expect 2 is well on the radar of high dan amateurs, but it's nice to have such strong teachers at home for free. Interestingly LZ's suggested move was (but I get a different answer when I re-run it now) a nebulous reduction at c (initially was d shoulder hit, which white would pincer), which is the kind of area Sai was thinking about but couldn't decide where. The wrong book answer is e which neither of us nor LZ dreamed of, the moyo is obviously urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . e . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Another problem Sai disagreed with the book answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Book says 1, aiming at the a weakness and gives this continuation. But Sai says black is dreaming to think white would bump with 2 like this and help black make a nice outside, she would kosumi out (LZ would too if local, prefers approach lower right). I agree expecting 2 is a dream, and LZ gives it -7%. She wasn't sure what to play, but liked b, which the book says answer at c and this does make sense to me as preemptive action if you think 1 is good, but LZ would do stuff like attach to lower right 3-4 ("corners then sides then centre" remember!). I wanted to enclose at d as gobbling that stone if possible seemed urgent to me and this is LZ's move (attach at 2 also possible).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Book answer
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O 2 1 c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . 3 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


She isn't scared of black's placement immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Sai's "I'm ok as white" continuation
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . 0 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 7 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 9 6 . 2 . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


LZ agrees white is playing well here and leading, though says 12 better at more agressive 13, and lean on 13 before 14 (which I helped her choose); her basic idea was kosumi out, squeeze and connect under if black placement so give a dango and then fight with pincer stone. This seems a decent fighting plan, better than being a wimp.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Sai's "I'm ok as white" continuation pt2
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 X O . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . O 2 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, and this is a weakness in her thinking which I've learnt to exploit, she can read a sequence like this and see good fighting for white, so black shouldn't make the placement now (LZ says knight enclose outside) and there's a weakness for later. Is the checking extension kosumi exchange good for black? It certainly gives white a bad shape, but also black is split and white's out. In some LZ variations it like to approach and play big moves on lower right, not caring about the upper left white group being reduced to 1 eye and having to escape to centre.

Addendum: However, as a warning against treating LZ's word as gospel, if I make it play the book's 1, then kosumi for white (#2) and next moves all top choices it gives black only 45% to continue at 7 as best move (on 1k playouts).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B LZ blind spot setup?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, if 7 is placement here it's happy to block (59%) but then if black "unexpectedly" pushes through white drops to 40%. It wants to connect at 6 and sacrifice the corner in a trade for pushing through outside rather than squeeze under and take the small gote life. So it seems like early in this variation LZ was willing to tenuki the checking extension the book recommends, but underestimated the severity of the peep later. Not sure if more playouts would solve this (I'm using network #139 if anyone else wants to try before I get my new computer).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7 LZ blind spot?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 a . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by 4 people: Bill Spight, dfan, Shenoute, Struttnoddy
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #92 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:50 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 173
Liked others: 14
Was liked: 52
Rank: KGS 1k EGF 2k
KGS: Schachus12
Not even considering tenuki in response to a shoulder hit on the small shimari(especially in special sitiuation) seems indeed very strange even pre-AG considering that this is a human-made joseki and :b3: is even the most common response to :w2: according to waltheri (though that contains recent post-AG games)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


This post by Schachus was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #93 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:23 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Yes, given that in life-and-death problems you are expected to make your move work against all possible resistances, it seems pretty sloppy to not attempt something approaching that in an opening/middlegame problem, though there's obviously far more choices in open play and this book only has 2 answer diagrams per problem. Still, devoting that precious space to your opponent's best answer rather than wimpy obedient one would be nice, even if it is more complex so not so easy/simple teaching (and as the last problem in the section for a book for (even weak Japanese) 1 to 7 dans I think such a move should be on the radar). Answering shoulder hits with a pincer like that isn't particularly wacky, there's plenty of old pro examples, e.g. Shusaku.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #94 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:44 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 51
Liked others: 6
Was liked: 7
Rank: SDK
Uberdude wrote:
Addendum: However, as a warning against treating LZ's word as gospel, if I make it play the book's 1, then kosumi for white (#2) and next moves all top choices it gives black only 45% to continue at 7 as best move (on 1k playouts).

...

However, if 7 is placement here it's happy to block (59%) but then if black "unexpectedly" pushes through white drops to 40%. It wants to connect at 6 and sacrifice the corner in a trade for pushing through outside rather than squeeze under and take the small gote life. So it seems like early in this variation LZ was willing to tenuki the checking extension the book recommends, but underestimated the severity of the peep later. Not sure if more playouts would solve this (I'm using network #139 if anyone else wants to try before I get my new computer).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7 LZ blind spot?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 a . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I input this into my LZ, and although it agreed that it wanted to push at 7 (your first diagram), if I played the peep at 'A' instead, it immediately saw that the :w8: was a bad move and wanted to protect the corner. However, the best move for White after the peep gives it a 45%-46%, whereas pushing in your first diagram as Black gave it a 53%-54% in my LZ. So, I guess the peep would still be considered a blindspot.

I don't remember what network I'm running, but I guess it's kind of old at this point as it was pre-ELF.

Image

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #95 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:25 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
There's some weird non-reproducability here, I just put it in again as a fresh position and it found the peep as a good move within a few k playouts, 10% over the push out on the side, and expected the same counter peep answer as yours. I wonder if this is just random fluctuations expected in such non-deterministic algorithms, if my previous analysis had somehow biased the search tree, or I misremembered and used a different network before (I think both #139).

Attachment:
lz peep.png
lz peep.png [ 606.32 KiB | Viewed 1535 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #96 Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:35 am 
Judan

Posts: 7685
Liked others: 2059
Was liked: 2697
Uberdude wrote:
There's some weird non-reproducability here


Menschliches, allzu menschliches. ;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #97 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:43 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
So we had the British championship challengers' league. I came 2nd with 5/7 and will play the 7/7 winner Sam Aitken 4d in the title match (as one would expect based on ratings going into the tourament). When I was 1/2d Sam was the hot young talent who beat a bunch of 6ds in the British open one year but he went off to live in China for a while and is now back. I've been recording my games and reviewing with LeelaZero, here's one for starters with Boris playing an AlphaGo opening he'd studied, an interesting centre fight, his big mistake and a fun trade which left me well ahead.


Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #98 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:49 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I posted this in the Pandanet Leela thread as it's from a mid/high dan amateur game related to that, but I found it a striking illustration in how important an urgent power point is so will put here too. (I'm fairly trusting of LZ's judgement in this case).

There was a lot of zigzags in the winrate graph, and that's because at nearly every move for quite some stretches of the game LZ thought both players were missing the urgent point concerning the strength of the white wall on the right, q11 for black and p12 for white (I checked a few times with LeelaElf and it agrees). So everytime black doesn't play q11 his winrate drops a load, because it expects white to play the best move at p12, and then when Dragos doesn't black's win goes back up by about the same amount. It's like when you are watching DDKs playing and both fail to live/kill a 50 point group, but on a higher level. To hammer home how important LZ considers this area, here's the times it thinks it's better than the move they played (better move with a 1, game move marked with X):

Black kicked (a joseki) and white descended, LZ says should q11, if kick white should punish with hane and if black blocks then (crude?) atari and p12, so black should ignore hane to q11 and allow white poke into corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -5%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . X . , Z . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This m4 even I could tell was slack (if you want to play there LZ considers n5), but with q11 you need not fear m4 invasion as wall weak.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -7%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . Z . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White approached, LZ says knight move key point.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -7%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black pincer, should push.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -9%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . Z . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When white ignored pincer to make top left shimari (-12%) although initially LZ said p12 was best for white it then decided q15 press was best. Then when black split side q11 push still best.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -16%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White played checking extensions, should knight move or q15 press (very similar).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -17%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . P . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black extended/approached to make base, push still more important (it thinks white shoulder answer push, if white ignored push to c14 pincer on left then black simply o11 jumps to attack wall and grow top left and is better.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -11%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White kicked, should knight or press still.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -8%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black extended, a natural and locally very urgent move, but even now LZ says push is bigger and doesn't mind if white tigers on top and black gets to o11 jump.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -10%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm repeating myself...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -13%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . P . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ditto.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -14%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White answered, in fact at this time (probably because of k17 now there) LZ thinks press is 0.3% better than the knight move, but both massively better than bump white played.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -16%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . P . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again we see a local contact situation (like kick extend) so respond seems urgent, but big picture q11 push still much more important. (After extend it again slightly prefers for white press to knight move, both 12% better than o16 kosumi played).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -14%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X Z . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B answered the o16 kosumi with this knight, still should push, because...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -9%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . Z . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White should still p12, now it doubles as the nozomi shape I'd previously noticed AlphaGo likes to play.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc -3%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . P . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Once that top right shape settles the urgency of the q11/p12 points drops. However, there is a similar zigzag later in which it thinks white should be playing the n9 shape-making point and black should be playing the o8 shape-destroying peep which they both repeatedly miss.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Elom, Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #99 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:12 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 821
Location: Earth
Liked others: 249
Was liked: 135
Thanks for the interesting review.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Uberdude's journal
Post #100 Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:11 am 
Judan

Posts: 5134
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 276
Was liked: 2684
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Lost my game in the PGETC promotion match, interesting centre play nevertheless.



Quote:
I also lost, to Matias Pankoke 5d. He approached a lot in the opening, did a solid joseki whilst I made AlphaGo-style shimari and attachments. I constructed a moyo and then attached on top of his 4th line extension, pleasantly surprised to see LeelaZero actually thinks it's a decent move and his answers soft. Then came his reduction and I didn't play so well, making a clumsy shape whilst his group got strong. I switched my moyo to the left, he invaded the lower side (LZ says I should have defended there instead), I let him live (which also unsettled my group) but vaguely connected over the top to also develop left moyo and enjoyed played a cool haengma at 79 which LZ agrees is best as a surround left plus attack middle move. But I then messed up in answering his 80 push in an overly cautious way and got painfully double forced and he then took sente to play a severe attachment and I started to fall apart with the thinness I'd left behind (plus overtime pressure). I got a bit more than I deserved on the left side, and at move 123 might have made it a closeish endgame had I blocked at the lower left, or found the sharp tesuji at tengen that Facebook's Elf engine saw, but in the end played out a 16 point loss.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: palusijf and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group