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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:03 am 
Dies in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
says it's good for white to then live in the corner

I'd be really interested to query Elf specifically on some of these sequences when I got the chance, but I gave it a fair amount of time for each move in that previous continuation sequence - it seems Elf likes to threaten to live but then thinks its a better idea to strengthen the floaty outside group (in sente as black needs to deal with the corner)

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all players are fallible, superhuman bots included. :) We need to maintain a healthy skepticism about their evaluations, even while recognizing that they are better than ours.

I agree absolutely.
I'm also very guilty of forgetting this attitude at times though. Sometimes I treat anyone 2 grades stronger than me as an oracle of absolute truths!

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:49 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
From a scientific point of view, one problem with current bot evaluations is that they do not come with an error estimate.


Yes - Absolutely, this is problematic. Also though I wonder if any metric of confidence might end up being a bit misleading. Confidence is pretty hard to come by when faced with this kind of complexity. Variance of reading seems like a fuzzy metric.

I guess our best proxy to confidence is the degree to which the win% jumps around. This would tell us that Elf is not confident in these branches

Gomoto wrote:
I love go, finest game discovered yet.

Me too. And your other post is a good reason to:
The depth and complexity is such that we can get the illusion of a great breakthrough, but there is never actually an answer.

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:17 am 
Judan

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MikeKyle wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
From a scientific point of view, one problem with current bot evaluations is that they do not come with an error estimate.


Yes - Absolutely, this is problematic. Also though I wonder if any metric of confidence might end up being a bit misleading. Confidence is pretty hard to come by when faced with this kind of complexity. Variance of reading seems like a fuzzy metric.

I guess our best proxy to confidence is the degree to which the win% jumps around. This would tell us that Elf is not confident in these branches


Actually, the researchers could generate error estimates for evaluations if they wanted to. But the accuracy of evaluation is not their concern. Beating other bots is. So evaluations, which make up only part of the strength of bots, are not tested, except indirectly, through play against other bots or self play.

Edit: This is not by accident. It turns out that improving some aspects of a bot can make it perform worse overall. Strong bots are complex. :)

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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #24 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:45 am 
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So one of the sources of confusion from Elf might have been a ladder that pops up in some of Elf's continuations. The ladder weakness is a pretty big, pretty obvious reason to give these reads a pinch of salt. Variation with a ladder missread here, but also there's a fun tesuji. Elf abandons the tesuji after a little bit of further reading but I thought it looked interesting.



In summary I think to play the original kosumi you need to be prepared to give away a large corner to take the outside. It seems that you can be pretty sure of this result if you choose to block at the 3-2 point choice. If you choose the other 3-2 point then you must be prepared to take the corner and fight in the centre.


Attachments:
Elf curious joseki reading 2018-05-18.sgf [335 Bytes]
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 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #25 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:13 pm 
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To look at the other major Elf patern a little..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B The "Usual" joseki here
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . 6 . 8 . |
$$ . . . . 7 1 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


What Elf likes next seems to be highly dependant on the whole board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Tenuki is possible
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . 5 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here Elf favours tenuki. 'a' is the best local follow up, but approaching is bigger (about 2% difference.) I supose that there isn't a very pleasing extension across the bottom without leaving a strange spacing somewhere(?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Master and Elf agree
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 5 . 4 . . 8 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In this case Master and Elf agree again. 8 is just about a certainty. In this case, it seems to me that settling this group is too important. 'a' is Elf's second favourite again, but it's about 5% behind. White 'a' is followed by black 8, white 'b'.

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