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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #21 Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:45 am 
Judan

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About o6 vs the ladder, the ladder is better if you can play it because then the 3 stones are strong and q6 is captured, so you are threatening a severe attack on white at n3 if he tenukis, so gote at m4 is pretty much mandatory, but with o6 white tenuki is much more playable because q6 aji means its a lot harder for black to attack white given he has resources like p3 sente or even p5/p6 and fighting. In fact if the ladder is good for black then white's joseki choice is a little bad (unless there's a devastating ladder breaker to make up for a trade), either q2 should be s4 (or bots seem to like t5 too but it reverts!) or if q2 then o3 should be p5 to avoid clean ladder capture.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #22 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:16 am 
Dies in gote

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Thank you for your comments Uberdude, I really want to have these standard josekis down before I attend the tournament at the end of the month.

Anyways, a few days have gone by since I posted here last. I attended my local club again this week, and played a lot of online games. On OGS I am still on a semi-losing streak, even though I feel I already got a deeper understanding of the game, sometimes I also lost won games by blunders but that happens to everyone.

Nontheless I lost two ranks and am now 4k on OGS, while I still can hold my own against IGS 2k and 1k (still 1k?) and today I played again on FoxGo for a change, and won against another 2D. While reviewing the game with Lizzie, I realized how badly I did in the opening and early middlegame (I knew it wasn't optimal, but didn't think the win chances were that low) and could only catch up due to my opponent blundering i.e. not reading far enough in a sequence thinking he could cut off one of my groups. I reviewed the game rather fast with LZ, so I have not added a lot of comments.



Another game I played this week was against a 1k on OGS, the opening as you'll see was quite weird, with white taking the sides, instead of playing around the corners (maybe the thought from white behind this was giving black some sort of handicap), so I was satisfied with the opening (LZ agrees and estimates a win chance for black to be around 80% at move 33) but I ended up losing a lot in the endgame and probably playing overly timid because I was worried about my centre group and some really non-sense moves in the endgame.



Attachments:
OGS-1k-lost-17082019.sgf [1.86 KiB]
Downloaded 249 times
FoxGo-2D-17082019.sgf [1.99 KiB]
Downloaded 248 times
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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #23 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:50 am 
Honinbo

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DeprivedWaste wrote:
I really want to have these standard josekis down before I attend the tournament at the end of the month.


Only a few hundred joseki to go. :lol:

Good luck at the tournament. :D

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #24 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:08 am 
Dies in gote

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True :D that would be a bit much, I wanted to say the more commonly played 3-3 invasion josekis and not all existing josekis!

Edit: And thanks for the good luck wishes :)

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #25 Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:53 pm 
Dies in gote

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I stayed home tonight (not feeling well) and decided to play a bit on KGS, to my surprise the automatch feature matched me up against a 4k (while I am a 2k on KGS) so that meant going against 2HC stones.

In the past I really disliked handicap games, I don't have that feeling anymore, I appreciate them now for what they are. so I was happy for the challenge (reminder on OGS I am a 4k myself).

To my surprise, I had opportunity to play a few variations I learned on Guo Juan's InternetGoSchool! So even though I messed up and pressed a running group of his into one of my own weak groups, I am still very satisfied with it.

The game itself was very exciting, with a big early seki due to both players blundering a bit and practically ended with a dead corner from black due to him missing the danger of the hidden potential of two white stones that were in atari. That said it was also a very fast game (short main time iirc and 3x10 second byo-yomi), I rarely play longer games on KGS but plan to try that out too.




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 1 wasn't new to me, but move 5 I first really learned through the IGS. \nI was very satisfied with trying it out in a live game
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Continuation from the game

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Game position at move 21
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Attachments:
legon-4k-KGS-won-2HC-game-17082019.sgf [5.96 KiB]
Downloaded 236 times
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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #26 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:29 am 
Lives with ko

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I think move 4 in that variation is soft, giving white many forcing moves to block the right side and create great thickness.
This is what I learned from In-Seong as joseki (and from there, black may continue on the upper side):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 4 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black gets a nice and thick corner territory, bute white gets a powerful group that radiates influence to the whole board and the black stone at M17 ends up as a liability for black.
So still, I think it would have been better for black to play normally on move 6 in the game, which is jumping to Q14. Playing at M17 was too greedy IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #27 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:03 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc What now? Not that I know.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Looking for perfection is the only way to motivate yourself.
— Ronnie O'Sullivan

"Elvis, can't we please go home?"
— One of the Jordanaires


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #28 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 am 
Lives in gote

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Bill's move is interesting. Both KG and LZ seem to roughly agree that the following sorts of variations are expected.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X 7 O X . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O 8 X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



One possibility after that (black extend):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 6 5 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White aims to net around 'a' or to cut at 'b'. The white corner is unsettled but it is hard for black to kill yet because it can race with either of the two black groups and/or fight ko. Some variations result in black killing the white corner but white getting outside forcing moves, influence, or 2 consecutive moves elsewhere. Or black does not and maybe later white comes back and lives.

Black is not bad though. KG and LZ think that if black is as good of a fighter as white here, objectively black is still doing well.

Another possibility after the first diagram (black hane):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . 9 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 2 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 3 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc And then
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . X 3 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O O X . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Now black should tenuki. Both black and white have only one eye, so the corner may become a seki in the future. If black insists on trying to kill white from here, the best possible is only some flavor of ko, which is not as big as playing elsewhere now. Again, objectively black is still fine, if he can handle the complexities as well as white.

There are also other variations in this fight too, that all the above diagrams don't cover, as well as other possible move orderings that transpose to the same kinds of lines.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #29 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:07 pm 
Judan

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This attach and then corner cut sequence after they kick your approach and then pincer instead of jump is one that I very often use in high handicap games, particularly against the 'turtle'/'bunker' style of player who thinks all they need to do in a 9 stone game is not die and then they win. You then try to use the thickness to kill the side hoshi stones (or make them live so submissively you can still profit and win). Having said that, it is an alive corner with a fair few points with no scope for them to be stupid and kill themselves so there is less of the board unsettled where you can catch up. Something to not is hanging connection of 10 here is often better than solid: in terms of endgame if black later cuts at a the cut is already defended, and it puts more pressure on the marked side hoshi stone if present (e.g. b aims to connect), though it does leaves a peep from the centre at c. Worth noting that even if you just connect at d after c then e cut doesn't work (answer at f), though then black g can link under due to white liberty shortage. Of course the kind of weak player who
(hitherto, AI's changed it) kicks then pincers hopefully doesn't start having the attacking mindset like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Common handicap game sequence
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e O X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . O X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f c d 6 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black's shape attack at h above is quite annoying though, so I will often play this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Preserving my eyeshape
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 5 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O 4 X O 2 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If a turtler plays this in one corner, then I might try to bully them even more in the next corner with 6 given their apparent predilection for keeping the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc You really like corners? Ok, please have an even worse one.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . X . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 9 X . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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Post #30 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:32 pm 
Judan

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About Bill's extension, I've not studied or played this much against equal opponents (usually submissive much weaker ones in high-handis) but I think it's probably a strong resistance when the pincer is the close one-space low, as then black o18 is sente like lightvector showed so white 9 is not insta-killing the black top group. With looser/high pincers it's harder for black to fight like this, though still non-trivial for white against an equal-strength fighter.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc What now? Not that I know.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . O X . 6 9 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . X 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


There was one of the AlphaGo Master online games, vs Ke Jie in fact, where AG played the kick and then tenuki (3-space low pincer which combo-ed as an extension from another approach), and Ke Jie played this attach and AG allowed the forcing moves. Ke Jie then didn't defend the cut (must have thought it too slow) and invaded on the top, though white got sente after that fight ended in a trade and cut to make a large left side and won by resign soon after.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 6 O X . . . O . 9 . O X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 1 O 5 X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . , X X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . X . . . . O . O X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There was a recent pro game, maybe by Ke Jie (white) as well, where the following shape happened. It puzzled me why white 5 didn't cut and allowed black to defend the corner weakness aginst the sacrifice and forcing moves, maybe it was due to it being an overplay and Bill's extend refuting it, but I didn't investigate and can't find the game now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . X O .
$$ | . . . X . O .
$$ | . . 2 1 . . .
$$ | . . 4 3 . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


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Post #31 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:53 am 
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Interesting discussion, I checked it out myself with LZ and the variations seem more complex than I expected, I really didn't think the cutting stone would have so much life in it.

About my progress I don't have much to say, I made the decision to try and focus more when I play games, because I lost too many to blunders on OGS.

I also got my hands on some books about the fuseki a friend lend me, but I don't think I will use it to learn how to properly play in the early opening (I will just keep to pro games and Leela Zero for that), but it might be nice to use them as inspiration in tandem with LZ. So far I have kept my studying up, I slowed a bit down on the internetgoschool, but so far I've not missed a day of not somehow occupying myself with Go, and man so many games I either win or lose to do reading, so it is entirely worth doing tsumegos, it is in my opinion the most important skill of the game, thank god there are a lot of internet sources, else I could not study as much as I want.

When I checked the fuseki books out, I also got the feeling that old pro's tended to play a lot longer sequences on the side / centre, playing more moves on the sides / centre, when LZ really sometimes just wanted to leave the sequence earlier, to play another corner enclosure, or invade / approach an enemy corner. I wonder why old pro's thought these side / centre moves were better, when you can make territory most efficiently in the corner. That said they make a lot of mistakes according to LZ, but they're not big mistakes, still interesting to check out, especially when you compare them to modern top pro games, who now tend to be a lot more in agreement with AI.

I also have a few games on the backlog, that I still want to review and maybe upload here at some point.

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Post #32 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:16 pm 
Honinbo

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how has your experience been with the internet go school? is it useful? do you think it's better than just doing problems from a book?

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Post #33 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:41 pm 
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I bought the training system without the video lectures, but I fear I can not yet answer your question. Because I started doing the Basics: Step-by-step first (of course not all problems, but just the ones were I was curious), it was good to consolidate the concepts due to the way the system is set up i.e. if you solve a problem wrong, you can choose to revisit it in 24 hours, instead of 48 hours for example. But I am sure you know that.

Anyways, I recently finished doing the basic problems, and have now started doing the problems that are listed under "Topics" for example a topic can be "All about Sente" or "Efficiency". But it is all still covered under "Basic Course", so until now I had no real trouble, but I feel more comfortable doing it this way, instead of jumping directly ahead, hoping it will improve my game even if I solve these problems easily.

Which is important to notice is, that often the Basic course problems don't cover optimal or the strongest response, because they're for beginners and are just made to teach the basic concepts of things, so if you already have a good understanding about these concepts they're less valuable.

The selection of other topics include Important Shapes (also very fundamental) the Opening, Middle Game (lessons under Middle Game include for example Sacrificing Stones, Direction of Play..) etc. and personally I am most interested in the Middle Game and the Endgame sections, because I feel the Opening and Joseki you can study more efficient by replaying pro games and helping yourself with LZ.

But like I said, I have not yet progressed that far so I can not state if it is useful, but I will jump over the Joseki and Opening sections.. so ask me again in a few weeks!

All in all, so far I think it can be a nice change from normal tsumego or tesuji, it is more about broad concepts and not really deep reading, with a few exceptions (but again I just finished the Basic course section a few days ago).

If you're looking to improve your reading, I would say doing problems from a book or website (like tsumego-hero) is better. Overall my experience has been positive.

How I most of the days start to study Go is replaying a pro game (only around the first 100 moves) and after that visiting the InternetGoSchool to review my problems (or the other way around) and finish it off with doing tsumego or tesuji problems, right now I am mostly focusing on tsumego-hero, so no tesuji problems. That said I also do tsumego sometimes when I am on the go, with a phone app, or on the laptop.

And I feel like doing these three things work together well like cogs in a machine and if I would remove one thing, the others would lose value too so they're all useful in some way to me. So out of everything I get something, but I wonder if I could replace for example the time I use on IGS with something else, that would even work better with the others, but I haven't found that yet. I might try out Yunguseng Dojang, or the Polgote School but I first wanted to do that, when I have reached a higher skill level.

Anyways, I hope that helps, even though I could not entirely answer your question.

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Post #34 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:42 pm 
Honinbo

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DeprivedWaste wrote:

Anyways, I hope that helps, even though I could not entirely answer your question.


Thanks, I think you answered my question well. I decided to try out the problem sets, myself. I'll see how it goes, too. I did 70 just now - looks like mostly joseki-type problems more than life and death, but maybe I need more exposure to those anyway.

Hadn't heard of tsumego hero - will try that, now.<-- interesting site, but takes too long to load. and i found a mistake with one of the problems, i think. I'll stick to the books for life and death.

But I like Guo Juan's site so far.

Anyway, good luck with your studies.

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Post #35 Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:11 am 
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I really enjoy spending part of my time on Go, it is such an intriguing game, and you never know what challenges awaits you in a new game, like a procedural dungeon in a videogame, you know the rules, but you don't know what layout or what monsters lurk in the dark.. a tricky fuseki? A challenging fight? A tight endgame? All of these together? I will I think, never really get bored of playing this game.

I played a lot of games the last few days, some lost to stupid blunders, some lost to lazy reading, others lost even though I gave it all, but most of all I had fun playing and were proud of a few. But I slacked on the reviewing, I just looked all of them over quickly with LZ, not spending a lot of time on each single one. So today I want to change that, and work through a few games on my backlog, and in the future I will try to adjust and spend more time on reviewing games. But reviewing is the only part I slacked of, still doing tsumego problems, replaying 100 moves of a pro game each day (really doesn't cost much time, but gives me so much back) and solving at least 100 IGS problems.

Really I have to break a lance (is that also a saying in english?) for replaying pro games, so often I got told it would be time not well spend for a beginner, and I should only do it if I have a lot of time left. But my own experience is quite the opposite, you spend so little time on replaying 100 moves (it rarely takes over 30 minutes) but get so much out of it, from whole board judgement to josekis and just a general feel for what the options are. So I recommend to everyone who might stumble upon this and ask themselves the question, just try it out or in the famous words of Shia Labeouf just do it. I understand of course, the people who said that I shouldn't, had experienced that they couldn't learn much from pro games at the level I was at, everyone learns different after all, trusting others is good, experimenting yourself is better!

So with these words in mind, here the first game played against a 2D on Fox Go and sadly lost because I was too lazy to read! It also includes a situation where white had a lot of weaknesses, and I had a hard time deciding which weaknesses to poke at, thank god for LZ.



Here a game against a 3K on KGS, where my opponent decides to build a moyo and I decide to invade after I had somewhat of a lead, of course it ends in disaster, because I have trouble with invading often times even feeling like a fraud when I manage an invasion, as if it was just a matter of luck, I of course want to learn how to deal with them.. I thought I would be able to review more games, but these took me already close to an hour, so I have to take a break for now.

If someone has suggestions on how to learn to be better at invading apart from replaying pro games and experimenting with Leela, please leave comments, maybe there are some good inspiring books on the subject matter?



Even though I lost, I am glad to have played these games (and now reviewed them closer), they showed me on what I need to work more. Later today I might review another game and look at a few sequences.


Attachments:
3k-KGS-loss-22082019.sgf [5.14 KiB]
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2D-FOXGO-lost-22082019.sgf [4.39 KiB]
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Post #36 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:44 am 
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Quote:
in the famous words of Shia Labeouf just do it.
Useless trivia: Mr. Labeouf was born in 1986 (Wikipedia).

Nike's "Just Do It" trademark was 1988 --
my classmates and I distinctly remembered Nike's slogan because we had been saying "Just do it" a year before Nike, when Mr. Labeouf was about age 1. :blackeye:

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Post #37 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:19 am 
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EdLee, 1987 wrote:
Just do it

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Post #38 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:20 am 
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I had no time this weekend to study Go, but I am back on track now (a lot of IGS problems in the backlog) and here are a few games I played today, and I added some thoughts with the help of LZ.

The first game was against a 2k KGS, his profile said he was also 2k in real life (I thought probably AGA or EGF) which made me nervous (I don't know why, I think I was thinking about the upcoming tournament) and I really struggled in the game due to some stupid overplays and moves, but in the end prevailed and won.



The second game I played on GoPanda and straight out lost against a 1k, I feel like I could have played much better and I need to focus more and not let it get to my head when I encounter something for me unusual, but just draw inspiration from the fundamentals or play creative.. but above all think! Instead of playing moves out of the blue like random bot :lol:



The last game I reviewed faster because I don't have a lot of time anymore, so there are fewer comments. It was against a 2D on FoxGo which I won, I feel pretty excited for the tournament and looking forward to some serious long games over the board.



I also finally solved a tsumego I had not been able to solve before the weekend, so yay for that,... for everyone curious:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc black to kill
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The first move might be obvious to most, but I just couldn't see how it worked and tried out a lot of other options.. until today I finally cracked it, a good feeling.. it no longer seems that hard, oh well! It was fun anyways


Attachments:
Winagainst2D-FoxGo-26082019.sgf [2.53 KiB]
Downloaded 96 times
Loss-1k-GoPanda2.sgf [3.77 KiB]
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2K-KGS-26082019.sgf [6.68 KiB]
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Post #39 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:20 am 
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A lot of things have happened, and I can already see that next week will become quite stressful too. Anyway I haven't posted here for around a week, so it is time! Sadly I didn't go to the tournament after all, but I've already set my sights on another tournament happening this month.

But still some changes in my studying regime, I joined OSR! Open Study Room, and now instead of only playing faster games online, I also play longer games against other OSR members (originally I planned to do that in preparation for the tournament that had happened this weekend, but it is actually quite fun in itself), and what a change that is, I lost a few games I could've won.. one where I was leading but didn't realize it and played too aggressively (I should count now that I have the time in these games, bad habit from faster games to not count), and lost a few more due to the unusual time settings and.. simply being outmatched! So I can already tell, OSR will be a good challenge for myself.

The game I am most proud of, is the one I recently played against a 1k, and lost, sadly I missed a corner sequence, despite the fact that I did make a mental note in-game that I should look at it closer.. but I forgot.

Still it was an exciting game, where white build a framework in the centre, and I as black thought I could easily take more territory and then reduce whites influence enough to win. LZ already showed me a few obvious paths I could've taken to make it even easier..



Some positions I found interesting

How to reduce white?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |[/go]



Leela recommends (apart from other alternatives) this move.. I have a hard time even with LZ continuations to see how it could work, maybe I didn't let LZ run with enough playouts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . O O . B . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


My opponent stated that the marked move (a) could've worked, I am not quite sure what he meant, maybe some sequence where at some point black A14 (b) could've forced white to place an extra stone inside his territory? Maybe I am missing something obvious, we were both in byo-yomi after all.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O . O X X .
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O . a O X X
$$ | X X X X O X O O O . . . . O O X
$$ | X O O O O O . . . , . . . O X X
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . . O O O O
$$ | b X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X .
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . .
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O[/go]


Attachments:
OSR-Capitaine_Crochet-1k-closegame-missedcornersequence.sgf [4.05 KiB]
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Post #40 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:51 am 
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After he plays here in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O . X O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X O O O . . . W O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O . O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like there is some aji, but I don't see a 100% path, yet.

In particular, these order comes to mind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O 2 C O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X O O O 3 . 1 O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . . , . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O . O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looks dangerous! But I only see a working path if black's extension here is sente against the 3 stones on the left.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O O . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X W W W X 1 X O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . . 2 . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O . O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white answers, it looks nice:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O O . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X O O O X O X O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . 1 X . 4 . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . 2 X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . 3 O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O . O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But I don't have a clear picture of what happens if white doesn't answer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O O . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X O O O X O C O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . . X . W . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O . O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is certainly aji, but I don't know what the exact path is after this.

Maybe trying for some sort of benefit down in the bottom left?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X O O O . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X X O X O O O X O . O O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O O O O . . . X . O . O X X . . . |
$$ | X X X O . . . . . . . X O O O O X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . O X X O X . X . |
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . X |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X O |
$$ | X X O . . . . . . . O O O X . . X O O |
$$ | . X X O O . . O O , O X X . O X O . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X X O . O X X X X O . O |
$$ | X O X O X X O X O O . O . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . X O X . X X X O O X X O O . O . . |
$$ | X X X X . O X X O . O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | X O O X X X X O O . O X X . X O X X O |
$$ | O 4 O X O O X . O O X O X . . X . . X |
$$ | 3 . O O O O X O O X X . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . 5 . . 2 O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At least it seems fun..

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