OCA's log

Knotwilg · **#341**

Highlights:

At move 200 you lose a group. This taps into the earlier focal point of being aware of life & death (or atari) when the board becomes crowded with stones in the end. But even without that kill, you'd lose by 10 points. Why?

1) Losing tempo: Beware of empty triangles: all of :b59:

and

are bad ones.
2) Losing tempo: the whole sequence at the top was slow. White was able to connect easily with many points. You connected your groups too but too slow at that. I'd highlight :b89:

(see commentary)

Another remark: try refraining from fancy moves like 109 when your group is at stake and a normal move can save it while making points. Between 127 and 133 White can kill it. This is another reminder of your checklist.

Cheers

oca · **#342**

Uberdude wrote:

but also your o7 jump (better than nobi you played as Amelia suggested) doesn't have such an obvious followup at q8 now. 3-3 is certainly easier...

The more I see that nobi, the more I think this one violate my rule number 4 "FANCY MOVE", as I never saw that kind of move in any book for example.

skydyr · **#343**

oca wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

but also your o7 jump (better than nobi you played as Amelia suggested) doesn't have such an obvious followup at q8 now. 3-3 is certainly easier...

The more I see that nobi, the more I think this one violate my rule number 4 "FANCY MOVE", as I never saw that kind of move in any book for example.

I wouldn't call it fancy. It's just too slow. Fancy (the bad kind) is "I can play this one move that does 3 things half way" instead of playing a move to do one or two of them fully.

oca · **#344**

Knotwilg wrote:

Highlights:

At move 200 you lose a group. This taps into the earlier focal point of being aware of life & death (or atari) when the board becomes crowded with stones in the end. But even without that kill, you'd lose by 10 points. Why?

1) Losing tempo: Beware of empty triangles: all of :b59:

and

are bad ones.
2) Losing tempo: the whole sequence at the top was slow. White was able to connect easily with many points. You connected your groups too but too slow at that. I'd highlight :b89:

(see commentary)

Another remark: try refraining from fancy moves like 109 when your group is at stake and a normal move can save it while making points. Between 127 and 133 White can kill it. This is another reminder of your checklist.

Cheers

...[oca] Removed the sgf as if the sgf is here, the diagram below doesn't show up...[/oca]

Thanks you very much Knotwilg !

I didn't noticed how ofen I connect allready connected stones ! I will add that one to my list !

1. IMMEDIATE DEATH
2. PAINFUL CUT
3. BROKEN SHAPE
4. FANCY MOVE
5. SLOW or SMALL MOVE
6. DON'T CONNECT ALLREADY CONNECTED STONES

:b59:

I remember I wanted to make one eye so I'm not confident enougth this the strength of that group which is not in immediat danger, so I agree, this is really to slow, and violate my rule number "5. SLOW or SMALL MOVE",
:b85:

still that fear of double turn... I should really try more to play them

109, yes... really fancy

From 127, I was sure that my bottom group was alive, but the eye at 'a' can still be killed (167)... I was a bit too confident here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . O . O X . . $$ | . . . . . O O O . X X X O . $$ | . . . O . O B O O X . O . O $$ | . . . O B B B O X X . O X . $$ | . . . O O B a X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +-----------------------------[/go]

143 and 145, I read a book on yose, and I try to incorporate a few moves like these in my playing. The book about yose contains lots of nice things, but it was a bit difficult for my level so I will read it again later and concentrate my-self on more simple things right now like the problems in the "Graded Go Problems For Beginners" books.

mitsun · **#345**

oca wrote:

I read a book on yose, and I try to incorporate a few moves like these in my playing.

Does that book perchance say that before playing the good diagonal move, you should check whether the more ambitious knight move is even better? (move 145 at B7 is worth reading)

tentano · **#346**

Seconded. That B7 is highly instructive to consider.

rat4000 · **#347**

Amelia wrote:

24: If you're going to run, you've got to run. My gut feeling is another one point jump here, to stay ahead.
Because:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

This is a fascinating position. White doesn't seem to be sealed because if he tries to break out and black resists bad things happen fairly fast:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 3 4 . X . X . . . | $$ . . . 6 2 1 O O . . . . . | $$ . . . . 5 X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

So black has to protect the cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 7 X . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 6 3 5 . X . X . . . | $$ . . . . 2 1 O O . . . . . | $$ . . . 4 . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

Except black can't play this way either because there's no good reply to 'a' (that I can find). Next attempt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 7 9 X . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 6 3 5 . X . X . . . | $$ . . 8 . 2 1 O O . . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 X . O . b a . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . O . . X . O . . c . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------[/go]

(8 is mecessary like 4 was, for similar reasons.) White is out and shouldn't have trouble making eyes, black's wall is facing white's strong corner, and white has a-b-c as a nice reduction.

If you really want to enclose white I can't really find better moves than what you offered. Playing 1 one point to the left (keima) may work but white will push and get strong and possibly point out that black's two-point jumps on the fourth line are actually kind of thin themselves.

So the moral of the story seems to be that black is too thin to play to seal (immediately). Chasing white all the way into the wall at the top is, I think, the correct strategy; in the game I'd call black's position better until p13, which I can't find a reason for and dislike.

Take this post with salt. I'm sure either you or someone else will soon find mistakes in it ;-)

oca · **#348**

mitsun wrote:

oca wrote:

I read a book on yose, and I try to incorporate a few moves like these in my playing.

Does that book perchance say that before playing the good diagonal move, you should check whether the more ambitious knight move is even better? (move 145 at B7 is worth reading)

oh... thanks mitsun :tmbup:

... white cannot play 146 that way... as 'a' and 'b' are miai if I got it correctly...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm145 $$ | . . . . . . . O X $$ | . O . . . O . O X $$ | . X O O . O . . X $$ | X . X , . . . X . $$ | . . X X X X X . . $$ | . 2 3 O O O X . O $$ | . 1 O 5 . b O . . $$ | . 4 a . . . . . O $$ | . . . . . O O O . $$ | . . . O . O X O O $$ | . . . O X X X O X $$ | . . . O O X . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ +-------------------[/go]

Uberdude · **#349**

Actually maybe white can play that way, how many points does white gain/lose that way versus answering on the other side. If white tenukis after hane on outside and black pulls back black has the clamp later. So there are some quite involved yose calculations here.

oca · **#350**

Three new games for me, the first one went very fine for me, a win by 30 pts or so

I lose the two other games.

GAME #1

In this one, the thing that I will remember is the end, where I didn't understood what black wented to do at 229. I was thinking "no problem, I have two eyes... I'm alive... no need to reply at all",

So I was really happy black wasted move here, and played triumphantly move 246, then, I understood that I cannot capture the stones, and that the situation became a seki... once again, this lesson is worth the game...

GAME #2

I'm happy of the invasion at 98 (I did that as there where 21 open points in the bottom so took my chance)

I'm not happy missing the killing move at 204 (that I should even have played at move 200) which should be directly at S15. I first wanted to reduce the shape to a bulky five, but that was allready a bulky five... I killed a false eye...

a bit earlyier, I'm not sure if there were a better option for 188, readed a bit but that was the best move I found.

Any comments welcome !

EdLee · **#351**

Hi oca,

Game 1:

oca · **#352**

EdLee wrote:

...

too much. Did you read the ladder ?

:w34:

Did you read the ladder ?
...

Hi Edlee, thank you for your comments,

for :w30:

hmmm embarassing :-?

, I did read the ladder, saw that it didn't worked and still chosed to play on that shape point (hoping for black not to cut)... ok... not a good way to progress :roll:

EdLee · **#353**

Hi oca, for :w30:

in game 1, just fix your shape directly with Q14.
Then, you have good follow-ups: P18, or tenuki.

Game 2:

oca · **#354**

Hi Edlee, thanks again for your comments,

EdLee wrote:

...

did you read J6 double hane ?
...
[/hide]

I will start with this one, as I noticed I have some trouble with double hane.

so the position is this one with :w1:

here instead of my actual playing at 'a'

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . a 1 . . . . $$ | . . . O . . b O X . . . . $$ | . X . , . O O X . , . . . $$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +---------------------------[/go]

fact : I hardly play the double hane by fear to be cut so let's try to see what hapend if white cut...
white can cut me at 'a' or 'b', let see what happend, first with a cut at 'a'

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . Y O . . . . $$ | . . . O . . 1 O Y . . . . $$ | . X . , . O O X . , . . . $$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +---------------------------[/go]

I suppose I should play :w1:

in response to the cut. Now it seems that black should help both stones. but I suppose black should help the cutting stone (if not, why to cut...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . Y O c . . . $$ | . . . O . . 1 O Y a . . . $$ | . X . , . O O X b , . . . $$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +---------------------------[/go]

I can then atari at 'a' or 'b', or extend at 'c', and here, I don't know how to decide what the best move is... My instinct tells me to play'c' but I cannot really explain why... Maybe I don't really see what atari will bring me, so playing a solid extension will be better here...

What should we take into consideration in a position like that one ? is :w1:

correct here...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . O O X . . . . . . O O O . | $$ | . X . , . O O X . , . . . X . , X X . | $$ | . . . X . O X X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EdLee · **#355**

oca wrote:

fact : I hardly play the double hane by fear to be cut

Yes. I wish I have more solid data on this.
But I have only anecdote evidence: adults around these levels have this fear.

I don't know about little kids around the same level.
My feeling is they are less likely to have this mental block.

For adults who play this way -- soft, scared, chicken (pick your favorite unpleasant description) --
you almost need to over-compensate: double hane like crazy and see what happens.
Of course, the correct answer is reading:
if it works, do it; if not, don't.

oca · **#356**

I learn joseki and tesuji, while I'm more and more thinking my problems are fear and being impatient... I may better improve if I try to address the root cause...

EdLee · **#357**

oca wrote:

my problems are fear and being impatient... I may better improve if I try to address the root cause...

Hi oca,

Yea, they are all related and inter-connected.
The root cause is our basics, or lack thereof.
A shaky foundation.

oca · **#358**

EdLee wrote:

oca wrote:

fact : I hardly play the double hane by fear to be cut

...
For adults who play this way -- soft, scared, chicken (pick your favorite unpleasant description) --
you almost need to over-compensate: double hane like crazy and see what happens.
Of course, the correct answer is reading:
if it works, do it; if not, don't.

I tried last night and that went fine... yahooo :rambo:

!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm61 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . X . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , X O . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . O . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O . . O . . O . X . . X . . O . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Whole game

EdLee · **#359**

Hi oca,

study what happens if you just play the nose tesuji M18 directly.

:b61:

not a double hane; just a normal hane, standard local shape.

oca · **#360**

EdLee wrote:

Hi oca,

study what happens if you just play the nose tesuji M18 directly.

Hi Edlee,

Sure ! I should have played that nose tesuji !

EdLee wrote:

not a double hane; just a normal hane, standard local shape.

oh... I see now, the first move is a kosumi, not hane... here is another try I played last night :

tried the counter mesure "play the double hane first, think after..."

so I played that :w64:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm64 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | X X O X . X . O X X X X . O X X O . . | $$ | . O O O . X O O O O O . X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X X X . . . O O . . X X O . | $$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . Y O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . Y O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Y O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think that was not that bad, as it helped me to connect (well I didn't connected in the game :~, ( I didn't captured the stone in atari, I think that was a mistake, I should have captured that stone...)

The double hane would even be better with a stone at 'a', to theaten to cature the tree stones.

Whole game :

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