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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #81 Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:02 pm 
Oza

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I think, following the suggestion for 141, black gets out of trouble by playing an extension to B9?

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #82 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:58 am 
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skydyr wrote:
I think, following the suggestion for 141, black gets out of trouble by playing an extension to B9?


Oh, the note was ambiguous, sorry-- what I meant to say was the black then has to cover two weakness. If black extends to B9, I think that after white plays at C14, black has no choice but to sacrifice four stones (in gote! Thanks to the C3 stone), becuase it doesn't seem black can resist...

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #83 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:49 am 
Oza

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Elom wrote:
skydyr wrote:
I think, following the suggestion for 141, black gets out of trouble by playing an extension to B9?


Oh, the note was ambiguous, sorry-- what I meant to say was the black then has to cover two weakness. If black extends to B9, I think that after white plays at C14, black has no choice but to sacrifice four stones (in gote! Thanks to the C3 stone), becuase it doesn't seem black can resist...


I thought black should be able to manage, but it's complicated so I'm not confident of that assessment.

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #84 Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:55 am 
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Elom wrote:
On move 141, if white plays at B11 first, as far as I can tell, it seems that C8 and the kosumi at C14 become miai).


How would you answer :b4: ? :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . X X . O . .
$$ | . 4 . O O X X O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O X X O
$$ | . 1 . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . 2 X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #85 Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:25 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
Elom wrote:
skydyr wrote:
I think, following the suggestion for 141, black gets out of trouble by playing an extension to B9?


Oh, the note was ambiguous, sorry-- what I meant to say was the black then has to cover two weakness. If black extends to B9, I think that after white plays at C14, black has no choice but to sacrifice four stones (in gote! Thanks to the C3 stone), becuase it doesn't seem black can resist...


I thought black should be able to manage, but it's complicated so I'm not confident of that assessment.


Yes, the position has turned out to be quite interesting :)

Sennahoj wrote:
Elom wrote:
On move 141, if white plays at B11 first, as far as I can tell, it seems that C8 and the kosumi at C14 become miai).


How would you answer :b4: ? :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . X X . O . .
$$ | . 4 . O O X X O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O X X O
$$ | . 1 . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . 2 X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Thanks for your suggestion, Sennahoj!

Hmm, it seems that if white plays above...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Seems to lead to black's disaster...
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . 1 O 2 X X . O . .
$$ | . X 3 O O X X O . .
$$ | 5 4 X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . 4 O . . . .
$$ | 7 1 O 3 X X . O . .
$$ | 5 X 2 O O X X O . .
$$ | 6 . X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


The best I can find for black is this--

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . c . k d j . . .
$$ | . f . . X O . . . .
$$ | . i O g X O . . . .
$$ | . e X X h . . . . O
$$ | . a 5 . 4 O . . . .
$$ | . 3 O 2 X X 6 O . .
$$ | . b 1 O O X X O . .
$$ | . . X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


But white may be able to choose to have sente, I think. If black ignores :w6: , it seems that white can use the sequence a-b-c, and if black cuts white off with d or k, I think white can come back to e, and in response to black f, I [i]think[i] that white can use the g-h exchange before coming back to i. therefore, according to the above, black should respond to :w6: with d-j-k, after which white could choose not to defend.


I'm most likely missing something fundamental though# ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #86 Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:15 pm 
Oza

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Elom wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Seems to lead to black's disaster...
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . 1 O 2 X X . O . .
$$ | . X 3 O O X X O . .
$$ | 5 4 X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]



Is :b2: here necessary, helpful, neutral, poor, or actively harmful?


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #87 Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:00 am 
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Elom wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Seems to lead to black's disaster...
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . 1 O 2 X X . O . .
$$ | . X 3 O O X X O . .
$$ | 5 4 X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


And if black continues?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | 1 X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #88 Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:45 am 
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skydyr wrote:
Elom wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Seems to lead to black's disaster...
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . 1 O 2 X X . O . .
$$ | . X 3 O O X X O . .
$$ | 5 4 X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]



Is :b2: here necessary, helpful, neutral, poor, or actively harmful?


Neutral (if black plays at 4 directly, the double empty triangle move works(!) and it transposes back to this position, if black thinks the four stones need not be sacrificed, I believe), but yes, it would be better form to play at :b4: directly :)

Sennahoj wrote:
Elom wrote:

...

And if black continues?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | 1 X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Yes, I overlooked this!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | 7 5 X X . . . . . O
$$ | 6 4 . . . O . . . .
$$ | 3 O O X X X . O . .
$$ | 1 X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | 2 O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


However, after seeing this move, I'm struggling to find a way to kill white (my feeling is that it's a ko).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X . . . . . O
$$ | . 5 6 . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | 1 X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . 3 . . . .
$$ | 8 5 . . X O . . . .
$$ | . 6 O . X O . . . .
$$ | . 4 X X . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | 1 X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | 7 O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Sorry for the two-day reply (the connection went out)

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #89 Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:13 am 
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I guess black can just finish things on this side with :b2:, for white to connect under with :w3: is endgame :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . 2 . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | X X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #90 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:42 am 
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Sennahoj wrote:
I guess black can just finish things on this side with :b2:, for white to connect under with :w3: is endgame :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . O . X O . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O
$$ | . 2 . . . O . . . .
$$ | . O O X X X . O . .
$$ | X X O O O X X O . .
$$ | O X X X X O O X X O
$$ | . O . . X X O O X O
$$ | . . O O X O . O O X
$$ | . X X X O O O O O O
$$ | . . . O X O X X X O
$$ | . . . . X X X O . O
$$ | . . . X O O X O . O
$$ | . . . X . X O X X X
$$ | . . . X . X O O O X
$$ | . . . X O O . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]


Sorry for the long delay!

Yes, this seems to be the correct result :).
White seems to only accquire around ten points in gote, so it's unlikely it would have changed the course of the game :).

After three months of litte over-the-board combat, the somewhat ridiculous (arrogant? :)) 4d goal is still being chased, so far through study, although the main problem to cure may be tackling the disorganisation of my stones. While one doesn't want to start making statements about being so much more fearsome after training for a minute or two, I do feel just a little stronger. Best to balance this off with a hayago game (I can flood the sgf, yay!) illustrating just how much work that needs to be done:


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #91 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:45 am 
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It has taken a while to organise my play, hoping for better quality games.
This is short game, but situations like the one at move 82 aren't easy, so I put it up in spite of that.
(added some notes)



Attachments:
Elom-jianhuang.sgf [3.17 KiB]
Downloaded 329 times

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #92 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:23 am 
Judan

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If you play atari you should have a good plan for if your opponent extends.


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #93 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:11 am 
Honinbo

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A couple of comments. :)



Main focus: Play more solidly.

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Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #94 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:19 am 
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Thanks for the comments! It seems I'm not searching for calmer, solid moves enough. You're right about 84, it was a complete concentration lapse (one silently exclaims after clicking the mouse!)

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #95 Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:00 am 
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A rather interesting thing happened in this game. I hadn't played in a small while, and just played two games, this is the second one:



This once happened in a game when I was ddk, before I learned the importance of counting. My opponent had to point it out after I resigned!

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #96 Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:02 am 
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Today an interesting position came up, it now becoming one of the few times I remember having to play a reducing move-- Usually it's the other way around.

/rant alert/

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Position 1, against a 3kyu (OGS). Black has just played at the circled point.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point in the game, it appears to be the case that white must play a move to counter the black moyou. However, I can't decide exactly which move is best, even up untill now. It feels as if there are many options for white.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Position 2 How to Reduce/Invade?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the actuall game, I did something unforgivable on the right side :)! And if that wasn't enough, white took gote for seven points! On the bright side, another interesting position arose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Position 2 How to Reduce/Invade?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . z . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the post-mortem I considered a and b as possibly being miai or complementary, but in the actual game I touched down upon z (!) worried that my previous plays had allowed black to take back 1-2 handicap stones, which ended in disasater when white made an overplay on the upper side.

/end of unnecessary rant about mistakes/

So, where would you consider playing? Hopefully I can pick up some of the wisdom relatin to Positional Judgment :)

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #97 Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 5:13 am 
Lives with ko

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I am weaker than you, but for the first diagram I would play somewhere around tengen, as it would have to direction to connect with a strong white group, and then you may be able to aim at further reduction once you don't have to worry about life anymore.

On the second, z will likely have trouble living, as there's absolutely no aji to be found in black's wall. a can aim at a further invasion on the bottom side, but b would likely induce less damage to white's own position on the left.

Alternatively, I think an invasion of the bottom may be possible, as you can threaten to connect with the bottom right white group, and there seems to be a few forcing moves against the bottom left black group. Then simply expend into the centre from the top and the left and this should be enough to win.


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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #98 Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 8:46 am 
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Bki wrote:
I am weaker than you, but for the first diagram I would play somewhere around tengen, as it would have to direction to connect with a strong white group, and then you may be able to aim at further reduction once you don't have to worry about life anymore.

On the second, z will likely have trouble living, as there's absolutely no aji to be found in black's wall. a can aim at a further invasion on the bottom side, but b would likely induce less damage to white's own position on the left.

Alternatively, I think an invasion of the bottom may be possible, as you can threaten to connect with the bottom right white group, and there seems to be a few forcing moves against the bottom left black group. Then simply expend into the centre from the top and the left and this should be enough to win.


Thanks for your notes! Yes, z was in all probability an overplay, as far as I'm currently able to tell. It seems very difficult to find a way to invade on the bottom directly, but playing near a first seems to make it possible. It seems that if all of the centre became black, black would win by approximately 20 points, so a feels playable.

For the first diagram, it does seem that one could play in the centre, as black's lead doesn't seem too large :)

_________________
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #99 Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:02 am 
Lives in gote

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Elom wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Position 1, against a 3kyu (OGS). Black has just played at the circled point.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . a . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . X p . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . q . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


At this point in the game, it appears to be the case that white must play a move to counter the black moyou. However, I can't decide exactly which move is best, even up untill now. It feels as if there are many options for white.


Indeed. But it is not a straightforward "reduction problem" issue, quite.

White appears to have conventional plays like ''a'', ''b'' and ''c''. Black has options on ''p'' (gote), and ''q'' (very likely sente, i.e. kikashi). The virtue of ''a'', which I would look at first, is that it stops Black pushing along for further influence, and even an attack against the upper side group.

A straight reduction play around ''b'' is kind of the textbook thing, but the position is sensitive to other things. Besides, what is the score right now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . 2 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The trouble with this position, to me, is that this sequence looks winning for Black. Black having 10+ in the top left, needs only to aim for 25+ on the lower side, 20+ in the top right, to win. In other words :w3: here may be open ended, but not enough so.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . 5 . O . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . 4 X . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X q . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 6 . 3 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . p . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This might be about what White can do, but it will be a hard struggle in the centre, and Black likely gets to play the ''p''+''q'' combination on the right side for territory there.

Well, anyway, my judgement is that White doesn't have enough territory to play calmly.


Last edited by Charles Matthews on Mon May 18, 2015 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The way to BlackBelt
Post #100 Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:08 am 
Honinbo

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To second what Charles says:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . B . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Remember the saying that the second line is the line of defeat? Black has played 3 stones on the second line, 1 on the first; White has played 12, count'em, 12 stones on the second line. In addition :bc: is very well placed. In short, White is playing catch up against an opponent with few chinks in his armor.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Normal reduction
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . a . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A center reduction at or around :w1: is fairly normal play, as is "a", as Charles indicates. But things are more desperate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Overplay
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w1: is an overplay, but normal play is a loser.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Bluff
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . O . . O O O X . X O . . |
$$ | X O . X . X . . . , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A play like :w1: may evoke a passive response. Things are desperate.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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