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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #141 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:21 am 
Judan

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Bki wrote:
Would anyone has suggestion for other answers to the far approach?


Your corner kosumi is fine as a patient and territorial move, but gives him the chance to play a speedy opening so you will likely need some good invasion skills later. Also remember that if he doesn't extend from his approach then you deserve to pincer and attack it later. Other choices would be the knight's move f16 to keep influence/centre access (e16 is a good follow up for him in game), c15, or simply tenuki would display good fighting spirit e.g. make your own big shimari at f4.

Bki wrote:
Also I don't like how I was forced by :b31:, :b33:, but I don't feel like I could afford to ignore them.

Answering 31 is acceptable, and something you have to endure for getting the sente invasion and not giving him the eyeshape with playing hane-connect there (you'd already crawled the extra time at n18, if you hadn't should do so before blocking). 34 is ok, but 35 is too kind (not that it means you are loosing, but you fail to punish his premature move). Better is tenuki to help your side stone, if he cuts you r18 atari and then m18 crawl: if he extends then you live with r19 descent, if he ataris the 4 stones you tenuki and hane out at l17 and let him capture them if he wants. The purpose of m18 over immediate r19 live is to avoid his turn at m18 being sente. If you don't like the trade of losing the 4 stones you can crawl at m18 before the tenuki to the side stone, but maybe he will display fighting spirit and attack the side stone and then you wonder do you help it or display your own fighting spirit and follow up at l17.

This 'take both 3-3 and then side hoshi' actually happened in a game between Andrew Kay 4d and Boris Mitrovic 2d at the British championship league a few months ago. Serendipitously it was the game which Antti Tormanen 1p did his recorded lecture for the London Go Centre on and he explains various of these ideas and how to deal with the attachment under the hoshi too:

https://youtu.be/eN-T3keIe4I?t=899


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Post #142 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
30 - The strategy based on 3-3 invasions has been popular and successful lately. I’m not sure about the line of invasion. The 4th line is traditionally the line of development, not stability, so I would have played 3rd line here.
46 – forcing with an Atari on Black’s 3rd line stone before extending up would be the common sabaki technique
53 – I didn’t check with Lizzie but my feeling is that Black gets a natural attack on a heavy group, while making territory. Are White’s 4 corners enough? Maybe.
63 – Black should have extended towards the centre stone
71 – and then plays an almost pass move. Whenever you make an empty triangle, think again!
72 – disconnecting Black on a large scale is huge!
74 – simply capture and make your 2 eyes already
90 – your dragon will find a 2nd eye, so play elsewhere: good!
140 – with this sequence, you destroy his major other potential. The endgame must still be played, but you take the lead here.
152 – last comment: beware of disconnecting strong groups. The opponent may ignore that “threat”.


30 - My feeling was that the 3rd line was too deep, and it seems too easy for black to get solid territory and influence while forcing white to live small.
46 - You're definitely right, I should have ataried and sacrificed a few stones for some free forcing moves. Some possibilities appear for black to be split up on this side (which reduce his territory by a lot, something that my invasion kind of failed in the game), or for white to get a stronger shape than I ended up having.
53 - He definitely has more solid territory at the moment, but I do have a lots of way to get more on the side, so at this point I think the game is about even.
63 - Certainly.
72 - Actually I think it was a bit thin. If he wedges in I can only give up a stone.
74 - I'm ashamed, I'm not sure what I was thinking in the game.
152 - With H-J13 though I do get some profit if my opponent let me cut. Maybe not enough for now though.

Uberdude wrote:
Bki wrote:
Would anyone has suggestion for other answers to the far approach?


Your corner kosumi is fine as a patient and territorial move, but gives him the chance to play a speedy opening so you will likely need some good invasion skills later. Also remember that if he doesn't extend from his approach then you deserve to pincer and attack it later. Other choices would be the knight's move f16 to keep influence/centre access (e16 is a good follow up for him in game), c15, or simply tenuki would display good fighting spirit e.g. make your own big shimari at f4.

Bki wrote:
Also I don't like how I was forced by :b31:, :b33:, but I don't feel like I could afford to ignore them.

Answering 31 is acceptable, and something you have to endure for getting the sente invasion and not giving him the eyeshape with playing hane-connect there (you'd already crawled the extra time at n18, if you hadn't should do so before blocking). 34 is ok, but 35 is too kind (not that it means you are loosing, but you fail to punish his premature move). Better is tenuki to help your side stone, if he cuts you r18 atari and then m18 crawl: if he extends then you live with r19 descent, if he ataris the 4 stones you tenuki and hane out at l17 and let him capture them if he wants. The purpose of m18 over immediate r19 live is to avoid his turn at m18 being sente. If you don't like the trade of losing the 4 stones you can crawl at m18 before the tenuki to the side stone, but maybe he will display fighting spirit and attack the side stone and then you wonder do you help it or display your own fighting spirit and follow up at l17.

This 'take both 3-3 and then side hoshi' actually happened in a game between Andrew Kay 4d and Boris Mitrovic 2d at the British championship league a few months ago. Serendipitously it was the game which Antti Tormanen 1p did his recorded lecture for the London Go Centre on and he explains various of these ideas and how to deal with the attachment under the hoshi too:

https://youtu.be/eN-T3keIe4I?t=899


I had missed that I could get away with ignoring 35 since he has to capture before he can play R19.

That was a nice lecture. Of course the side hoshi invasion is kind of reliant on the opponent letting get away with a sente 3-3 invasion which really shouldn't happen. Though given this maybe I should have played something else instead of the second 3-3? Though attaching to his extension if he get sente to play the side hoshi is another cliche technique in such situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #143 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:55 pm 
Honinbo

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Several comments. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #144 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:20 am 
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Bill : Thanks for the comment. About the wedge, I don't think I thought about it during the game, it did cross my mind while reviewing, but I dismissed it because corner > side. Still, I am not an AI and even if they might prefer the 3-3, the wedge should give me a comfortable game. So maybe I shouldn't strive for perfection when I can't properly do the followup to make it works well.

And actually, now that I look at that position again in Lizzie, while it prefers the 3-3, your wedge is the second most visited move. So clearly I should be more careful about blindly applying dogma, and there's more to the AI era play than invading the 3-3.

Also I like your variation where white let the corner die but steal most of the side and can look forward to an attack on the other wall next.

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Post #145 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:33 am 
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So for this game I did do the "invade only one 3-3 then wedge" thing and I had a good game going, though some unreasonable fighting spirit on my part led to it being a lot more difficult than it should have been. Oh, and my opponent blundered 35 points for a half point ko at the end, but I was winning anyway so it doesn't matter.



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Post #146 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:02 am 
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I just played this game that I won on time. Somewhat my opponent managed to lose on time despite the slow standard time control of IGS.



I was in unfamiliar territory in the lower right corner after :b23:, but I think I handled it well. I don't play the high approach more but the knight move approach felt hard to play. Attaching to Q3 didn't appeal to me after getting pincered so I played the natural O4. I don't really know the usual joseki, but I feel like there's no way :b25: followed by :b27: is correct. :b27: in particular feels cowardice. After that I felt happy with the result, though I decided to settle my group before enclosing the top right. The crosscut tesuji at :w34: (well, if I didn't miss anything and it is actually a tesuji) felt good and let me get sente.

:w40: I'm never sure which enclosure is best. I've played the large knight move a lot, and the small knight move enclosure sometime even if the ai don't like it. I've yet to try the two space jump since I've no idea how to handle it well. Anyway, :w40: high felt right here since black had a high position overall so I felt like contesting him a bit. Once he approached kick and pincer were natural moves. I was happy to see :b47: since I was a bit worried about the inner peep at C16 and this removed it as a concern while still leaving the upper side open. I felt that :b49: was irrelevant.

There's lots of point to invade, and :w50: felt a good one since I can get free moves against the corner. In the game the move didn't enter my mind, but now that I look at this position :w58: might have been better at S13... Yes, looking in more depth it's certainly better since it looks like black corner isn't locally alive anymore. (black S14, white defend at R11, black S18, white hane at S19, black T16, white T18).

:w74: Giving up the three stones felt like a good enough trade for the entire right side and not having to worry about the invading group's life anymore, especially since the three stones aren't dead yet. And given that he decided to protect the upper side, I decided to pull them out with :w88:. Given his big lump of stone, my instinct was that I could live by threatening it.

White 130 and 132 was because I had misread the "tesuji" of white 134. But then it turned out all right because I realised I could play white 150 and win the capturing race.

Then my opponent tried something against the corner and ran out of time on the last stone before his next 10 minutes of time. I do think I'm winning regardless though.


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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #147 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:24 am 
Gosei
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Instead of giving answers, here are some hints:

40 - I'm not thinking about which enclosure to play. Why?

58 - yeah you solved that one;

74-75 - I agree connecting two groups is better than trying to save those 3 stones. This is already a hint at what White should do next at 76. It's a very interesting position, which I'm going to run through LZ.

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Post #148 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:13 pm 
Gosei
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Analysis with LZ, focusing on 40 and 78

[/Hide]

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Post #149 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:31 pm 
Lives with ko

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:w40: : (Before looking at your lz analysis) : It feels like the bottom right might need a move. Black S15 and the peep at O6 are quite annoying. Doing R13 and killing his top right corner (or profiting in sente from him living) is another option.

:w76: : Maybe I could cut black's apart. But black can sacrifice three now unimportant stones... So I guess playing elsewhere might be better? The top is open, invade the top?


After looking at the variations : Interesting. In retrospect, yes, I didn't really had sente at the bottom right and simply didn't get punished there. I'm not too worried about black growing the bottom to ridiculous amount because it's still open in several places and white can reduce from the top or from the side, and you can probably exploit the three sacrificed stones to reduce deeper. So the top feel more important.

Also seeing white M17 make my own play for :w82: at N15 feel wanting.

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Post #150 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:39 pm 
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An exciting game... Which I could have afforded to make less exciting.



After white 148 I'm easily winning, and I could have let him have the six stones on the left side. But doing so would be too easy on him, there's no way that should die. And well yes, after 162 I can be completely alive in one move. But no. Then after black 165, B10 set up a ko and I can either win it or make an eye and connect. Easy. But no. Then 170 at G10 and the group still live easily (and I can still play B10). But no, sloppiness in l&d (to be fair it's getting somewhat late and I'm tired) means that I play the terrible A10 and I give him sente to enclose me. I was lucky to find the nose play at 204.

Anyway let's talk a bit about the start of the game :

:w7: low because I didn't like what followup I had with the high play at D7. Though with him tenukiing I would have felt better having it high... Ah well, it's still a reasonable shape of a double approach in answer to the pincer.

Then in the following fight that spilled over three quarter of the board I didn't feel like letting him get away with anything that felt like ambition on his part, so the guiding principle seems to have been cut first think later. Given that I avoided dying anywhere and then seized the entire right side I feel it went well for me. Well his double hane at :b95: was bad after all.


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Post #151 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:37 pm 
Gosei
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Black 81. Play and win.

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Post #152 Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:13 am 
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Right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O . X O X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X O O . X O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O X X O O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O B a . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . b O O X X O . . . X O . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It's technically a ko, but black has no ko threat. I thought about black a too but white b and white live easily.

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Post #153 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:41 am 
Lives with ko

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I feel like I have trouble with giving handicap.



I might have gone overboard on this game with the "take all 3-3 and invade" strategy this game. Maybe I should have played something else for :w15:, but I don't really like the non 3-3 answer to the close pincer that much. Maybe :w47: invading the top might have worked better, as the left group would be less likely to suffer from collateral damage, and if he seal me in and make a large moyo at the bottom, it would be more open and so I could reduce or invade more easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #154 Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:43 am 
Honinbo

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Some top of the head comments:

About giving 3 stones: White has no objectively winning play, so the question becomes what are promising losing plays? That really depends upon your opponent. There is a personal, psychological aspect to giving 3 or more stones. As Go Seigen says, White's job is to make the game difficult for Black.

:w15: My feeling is that the 3-3 invasion puts Black on familiar ground. There is a joseki that he knows well. how about extending to R-07 in the bottom right? Now if White jumps out to P-14, Black will be on unfamiliar territory. And if Black prevents the jump, White threatens the kick and pincer in the bottom right. Also unfamiliar territory for Black.

:w31: I guess your bet is that Black does not know how to use thickness. IMO, that's a pretty good bet for most SDKs. ;)

:w33: This play doesn't give Black much of a problem. How about the two space high extension to D-13. Now if Black plays C-08, peep at E-15 and attack the Black wall. If Black plays F-13, then extend towards the bottom left to make a sizable territory on the left side.

:w39: White has made virtually no headway against Black so far.

:w45: How about K-03, threatening to connect underneath, to jump into the center and harass the Black wall on the bottom left, or to make a 2 space extension on the bottom side?

Yes, that leaves your group on the right side weak. But in general that's how you win handicap games, by leaving weak groups around.

:w47: K-03 still looks good, but how about the peep at E-05? Give Black some trouble. ;)

:b48: A bit defensive.

:w49: Good. You have made a little bit of headway. :) But you still have a long way to go.

:b50: Dubious.

:w51: Eye off the ball. Time to jump into the center, with K-05 or maybe L-05. You have already taken plenty of third line territory. Do you think you are ahead? Go where the action is.

:b52: Weakening the White group on the side.

:w53: You had to, anyway. But now you are weaker here.

:b54: Excellent!

:b66: Mistake. Black should counter atari and sacrifice this stone.

:b68: Maybe also a mistake. Hane at B-03, maybe? In any event, atari at G-07 while he still can.

:b72: Bad. C-08 should have been obvious.

Now we know. You are a better fighter than Black. Maybe you could have made use of that difference earlier in the game. :)

:w73: C-08, attacking the whole Black group. Black does not have time to save his 7 stones on the bottom side. White can probably take those stones later. Saving this White stone on C-07 and attacking on a large scale is very big.

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Post #155 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:34 pm 
Lives with ko

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Two typical handicap games. One of the won variety (things get complicated, and his stuff dies while mine lives) and of the lost variety (I live everywhere even if I shouldn't have, but the game isn't far enough that it can be saved in the endgame).






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