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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #121 Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:29 am 
Gosei
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Some comments with the help of Lizzie : )

In general and especially in games with stones on the 3-4 points, it is important to play fast and active. Prevent an enclosure, but don't necessarily play on after approaching.


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Post #122 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:45 am 
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Well, we all need entertainment, and this game is one that I'm not proud of, but is ultimately amusing. I played well and was ahead by a lot, made a 20k almost game losing blunder (except that I was ahead by a lot) by missing an atari (to be fair, I was desperate in having another close group live, but still that was terrible), compounded that by more (if lesser) mistakes and then only won because of my opponent making a more subtle (but still very big) blunder.



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Post #123 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:56 am 
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Another day, another game. I think the ko at 112 was a mistake, or at least I mismanaged the follow up and feel I didn't get enough profit from the bullying of the C8 group that resulted to compensate from the loss on the lower side. This being the case, w106 was a mistake and should have been at L5... Or rather the mistake might have been w116, I should have connected. But that comes only because b115 was a mistake, and he should have played L2, then I don't have the threat of N6 anymore.

w168 and w170 were unnecessary and should have been somewhere profitable.

Some other comments in the sgf.



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Post #124 Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:49 am 
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Having see the AI recommend the move, I've tried :b7: instead of the 3 space pincer that would have been my first choice before. I'm not dissatisfied with the result in the game at least, as I developed well on the corner and the side while giving him a slightly inefficient shape (and a group that could have been attacked even if I didn't). I guess the pincer might be one of those "double purpose" move that aren't accomplishing either of their purpose very well. As an extension it's a bit too wide and it is the least severe way to pincer.

I overplayed in the top left and should have died with one of my two groups. :b29: was bad, but I wasn't punished for it so I got a fine result (but :b65: should have been at :w66: for an even better result). According to the Takao Shinji joseki dictionary, :b29: at c12 is the move, or at h16, then white e14, black f15. The result is generally better for white, but here I think it's fine since that weaken l17.

:b75: should be at a10 since white can't escape or cut at b12, :w76: at a10 would kill.

b109 might have been better at k10.


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Post #125 Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:38 pm 
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I've been thinking that I should put myself more often in situation where I have to live in a precarious situation. The reason for that being that I've played quite a fair amount of games that I won because I killed an unreasonable opponent, but basically none that I won because I've skillfully created a living group in my opponent's sphere of influence. Still, it's not easy to think about this during game especially since the opportunity doesn't always arise, and my instincts tend to go more for the extraneous defensive move

Today thought I had this game. I'm not sure I needed to invade and live and could probably have reduced and reduced and won through the early kill. But his lower side was pretty big so maybe.



First there was b109. I was never worried about this living, but living without losing a lot at the top (and especially without reviving white's dead group) needed some attention.

Then b171 was almost certainly a huge overplay. I had M2, E7 to reduce (as well as the endgame hane connects) and probably could have gotten somewhere with a reduction at around k6-7. White 182 was a mistake (should have been k3) that let me get J4 in sente. Then white 194 at G6 and I have one eye but getting the second might be a bit tricky. Instead my opponent's move was like the one move that helped me live the most.

...Well I guess this mean this game is anything but an example of living skillfully :).

After that my opponent completely self destructed in the endgame. See w220 for example. But I was winning solidly anyway.


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Post #126 Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Quote:
I have to live in a precarious situation.
interesting experiment.

Some Go problems simulate these situations. :study:

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Post #127 Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Bki wrote:
I've been thinking that I should put myself more often in situation where I have to live in a precarious situation. The reason for that being that I've played quite a fair amount of games that I won because I killed an unreasonable opponent, but basically none that I won because I've skillfully created a living group in my opponent's sphere of influence...

Consider that you may already have learned the most valuable lesson. You have had your success against unreasonable opponents (in other words, opponents that exposed themselves to too precarious situations). Emulating them (particularly the dying part) is not the way to consistently win at Go. Strong players may appear to be in precarious situations but the reason that they are strong is that they already see the way home when they decide to get into those situations.

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... and my instincts tend to go more for the extraneous defensive move

This on the other hand is a bad habit that is worth working on. If you cannot see what the threat is, do not defend. Let your opponent demonstrate the limits of your current knowledge so that you can study the difference between necessary and unnecessary defensive moves. The next step is the difference between more and less efficient, but necessary defensive moves.

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Post #128 Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:04 am 
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ez4u wrote:
Bki wrote:
I've been thinking that I should put myself more often in situation where I have to live in a precarious situation. The reason for that being that I've played quite a fair amount of games that I won because I killed an unreasonable opponent, but basically none that I won because I've skillfully created a living group in my opponent's sphere of influence...

Consider that you may already have learned the most valuable lesson. You have had your success against unreasonable opponents (in other words, opponents that exposed themselves to too precarious situations). Emulating them (particularly the dying part) is not the way to consistently win at Go. Strong players may appear to be in precarious situations but the reason that they are strong is that they already see the way home when they decide to get into those situations.

Quote:
... and my instincts tend to go more for the extraneous defensive move

This on the other hand is a bad habit that is worth working on. If you cannot see what the threat is, do not defend. Let your opponent demonstrate the limits of your current knowledge so that you can study the difference between necessary and unnecessary defensive moves. The next step is the difference between more and less efficient, but necessary defensive moves.


Well, first I wasn't talking about doing invasions which obviously don't work but try to more often go deep when I'm unsure. The idea is less to win more games, and more to improve, because I feel that the best way to be able to get the feel about whether a group can live or not (and at what cost can it live, and whether that cost is acceptable), apart from doing lots of life and death which I am doing, is experience.

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Post #129 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:25 am 
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In this game I avoided going into the troubles of living (even if looking at it now, I think I could easily have done so) and just sacrificed a bunch of stone for a reduction that left me ahead by a lot thanks to an earlier kill.



The opening up to :w24: left me very satisfied. It's effectively as if he let me have 3 corners and my position on the right was nice. I'm not sure if the turn at :w28: was the right move, but his immediate cut let me develop on the bottom as well as solidify the right into solid territory, so I think it's fine even had I failed to kill the group later.

:w52: I've made it my habit to "punish" this large knight by the 3-3 invasion (well it's probably not a real punishment, but there's no way I can accept giving him a "basically the same as for the small knight, but better for black" by sliding, and I know there's also complicated variation that can arise from this move but have no clue about them).

Not sure about :w66:. I don't mind the result that followed from :b67: but it did left me with no base and eyes even if the group has enough liberty and space that it's not going to die.

White 112 was amusing since black 111 didn't actually break the ladder. But just ensuring the kill was good enough to win anyway.

Also given that I get the descent at B6 is sente, I might have connected with White 122 and tried to live on this side. Though maybe a move at around C8 would have been awkward to answer.

White 152 at J19 might have been better.


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Post #130 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:43 am 
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Bki wrote:
I'm not sure if the turn at :w28: was the right move


I think defending on the left with a hanging connection is better here. The turn at the bottom puts no pressure on Black's corner group, so its function is reduced to influencing bottom and centre. The hanging connection provides strength for the group, influencing the right side.

Bki wrote:
:w52: I've made it my habit to "punish" this large knight by the 3-3 invasion


Locally yes, but your group at the bottom is not very strong. Giving Black strong influence as a result of the corner invasion, is dangerous in this position (as is shown later)

Overall, impressive fighting, good direction of play, good shapes and tactics. Nice win!

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Post #131 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:14 am 
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Bki wrote:
:w52: I've made it my habit to "punish" this large knight by the 3-3 invasion (well it's probably not a real punishment, but there's no way I can accept giving him a "basically the same as for the small knight, but better for black" by sliding, and I know there's also complicated variation that can arise from this move but have no clue about them).


Your instinct to "punish" the large knight's extension in this case is a good one. But isn't E-03 better than C-03? It threatens to connect to your stones on the right. Sure, the fight can get complicated, but White has the advantage with so many stones locally. Don't avoid a fight where you are strong. :) Your opponent is more likely to make a misstep than you are, because of that. Faint heart, fair lady, and all that. ;)

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Post #132 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:41 pm 
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An interesting possibility Bill, but I'm a bit wary I might end up hurting my bottom side group instead.

Anyway, looking at some variation for the large knight move, I found this intriguing idea :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . 9 . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . 5 X X 2 . . . . , . . O O O X X . X |
$$ | . 7 O 1 3 4 X . Q . . . O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:w9: would normally be a trick play, refuted by D6, and after white cut the fight is in black's favour. But on this board the triangled stone is quite nicely placed to make the cut a lot more severe.

Let's look at it a bit more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc The L6 cut doesn't work now but it scares me.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . 8 . X O O X . O . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . 7 . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . 6 . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X 2 . 5 3 , . . O O O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O O X X . O 4 . . O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I don't think that's a good trade.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . 9 . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X O 4 2 1 , 0 . O O O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O O X X 3 O 5 . . O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 6 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Doesn't look like white can get anything more than that
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X O O X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 2 X . O X X O . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . X . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X O O O X 1 O . O O O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O O X X X O X . . O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc After a to h the group on the right has some sort of shape and possibility to escape but at the cost of hurting the four cutting stones.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . O . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . c . . . X . O X X O . |
$$ | . X X . . O . 6 a b . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X 2 . 4 3 0 . . O O O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O O X X 5 O 7 d . O X X X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . e 8 9 f . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


...Or maybe my bottom group is just too weak to handle this fight. Ah well. It was interesting thinking about it anyway.

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Post #133 Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:50 am 
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I've finally decided on a way to go through the Segoe tesuji dictionary that satisfy me. After my first pass through all the C problems, I'm currently going over it again skipping only the A level ones. I spend 3 minutes on each problem, doing around 10-20 problems per session. I will note some of the problems that I failed so that I can play it over my board later. I do so when :
1 - I completely missed the idea of the problem.
2 - I completely missed one of the possible defense given in the solution.
3 - I was bothered by a possible defense that isn't in the solution and so need more time to figure out.
4 - The problem was just that interesting.

As for L&D problems, I've finished going through the elementary series of the Cho chikun's encyclopedia of life and death for the second time. Rather than immediately start a third, I've finished GGPfB vol 3 that was in my "read it when I want to do more problem" list, then went through the level 3 of the korean go problem academy, and I think I will start GGPfB vol 4.

As for games, here two I played today :





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Post #134 Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:05 am 
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So, I won this game because of an amazing ko-phobia by my opponent :



There should have been no reason for him to not take the ko at least once.


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Post #135 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:41 am 
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This game was notable in that for some reason I was persuaded the reverse komi was against me (and that I would lose) until the game went to counting.



I badly handled the left side invasion but my opponent did worse so I lived there. Then I got a pretty good result on the right that I threw away by a mindless corner sac by trying too hard to kill. I could just have chased from behind or even just solidified the corner, but no.

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Post #136 Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Bki wrote:
I've finally decided on a way to go through the Segoe tesuji dictionary that satisfy me. After my first pass through all the C problems, I'm currently going over it again skipping only the A level ones. I spend 3 minutes on each problem, doing around 10-20 problems per session. I will note some of the problems that I failed so that I can play it over my board later. I do so when :
1 - I completely missed the idea of the problem.
2 - I completely missed one of the possible defense given in the solution.
3 - I was bothered by a possible defense that isn't in the solution and so need more time to figure out.
4 - The problem was just that interesting.


Isn't the Segoe tesuji dictionary too difficult for your current level, even if it is the C-Level problems? I still find them pretty challenging even now, so I've pushed it aside until I become a bit better at reading.

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Post #137 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:48 am 
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hl782 wrote:
Bki wrote:
I've finally decided on a way to go through the Segoe tesuji dictionary that satisfy me. After my first pass through all the C problems, I'm currently going over it again skipping only the A level ones. I spend 3 minutes on each problem, doing around 10-20 problems per session. I will note some of the problems that I failed so that I can play it over my board later. I do so when :
1 - I completely missed the idea of the problem.
2 - I completely missed one of the possible defense given in the solution.
3 - I was bothered by a possible defense that isn't in the solution and so need more time to figure out.
4 - The problem was just that interesting.


Isn't the Segoe tesuji dictionary too difficult for your current level, even if it is the C-Level problems? I still find them pretty challenging even now, so I've pushed it aside until I become a bit better at reading.


There are outliers, but generally I think that the C and B problems are right for my level. They're not easy, but interesting and fulfilling and when you fail to solve the problem you still learn something.

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Post #138 Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:27 pm 
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Obviously I don't have the right to tell you how you should study, but I feel like looking back at your overall journal history, you've been stuck around the 5-3kyu mark for quite some time - despite having stated that you solved many problems. Perhaps you are overestimating your reading ability or you aren't studying the tsumego properly?

The Segoe dictionary is recommended to start studying around the Dan mark by many for a reason. If you are getting the C problems wrong, then it's likely an indicator that the book may be too difficult for you. Just my 2 cents.

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Post #139 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:03 am 
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IGS: mlbki
hl782 wrote:
Obviously I don't have the right to tell you how you should study, but I feel like looking back at your overall journal history, you've been stuck around the 5-3kyu mark for quite some time - despite having stated that you solved many problems. Perhaps you are overestimating your reading ability or you aren't studying the tsumego properly?

The Segoe dictionary is recommended to start studying around the Dan mark by many for a reason. If you are getting the C problems wrong, then it's likely an indicator that the book may be too difficult for you. Just my 2 cents.


I mean, I've stopped playing again a few months ago after 4 years of barely playing at all. It's not surprising that I wouldn't have improved during that time, and I feel I've been making consistent improvement since then, so I would say that my current training program seems to work satisfactorily for now...

Edit : also I've seen the Segoe dictionary recommended as a way to get to dan level, rather than to start studying when you're already there.

At this point I usually get the C problem right, and even with the B problems my failure rate isn't discouraging yet.

Anyway I haven't posted a game in the last few days, so here one I just finished :



Would anyone has suggestion for other answers to the far approach? Also I don't like how I was forced by :b31:, :b33:, but I don't feel like I could afford to ignore them. I think him ignoring white 130 was the reason I won. It destroyed his central territory. Him backing off from the ko at white 180 also certainly helped but I think I was ahead even then (and would probably get compensation from the ko fight).


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 Post subject: Re: Bki's study journal
Post #140 Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:54 am 
Gosei
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Tygem: Knotwilg
30 - The strategy based on 3-3 invasions has been popular and successful lately. I’m not sure about the line of invasion. The 4th line is traditionally the line of development, not stability, so I would have played 3rd line here.
46 – forcing with an Atari on Black’s 3rd line stone before extending up would be the common sabaki technique
53 – I didn’t check with Lizzie but my feeling is that Black gets a natural attack on a heavy group, while making territory. Are White’s 4 corners enough? Maybe.
63 – Black should have extended towards the centre stone
71 – and then plays an almost pass move. Whenever you make an empty triangle, think again!
72 – disconnecting Black on a large scale is huge!
74 – simply capture and make your 2 eyes already
90 – your dragon will find a 2nd eye, so play elsewhere: good!
140 – with this sequence, you destroy his major other potential. The endgame must still be played, but you take the lead here.
152 – last comment: beware of disconnecting strong groups. The opponent may ignore that “threat”.


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