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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #21 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:06 am 
Oza

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The item quoted from Kato's book seems odd because that position has never appeared in a pro game.

In fact the Black pincer is very rare - only 4 games.

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Post #22 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:43 am 
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PlaySlow wrote:
But the dan players i have asked at KGS say...
Hi PlaySlow,

Some food for thought:
  • Pro thinking, assessment, and ideas are always changing. Examples: before and after Go Seigen-Kitani; before and after Go Seigen's new Avalanche turn, etc. I don't know when Mr. Kato wrote that book; if he were still around today, who knows what he would say now about that position.
  • At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.
  • Do you happen to remember the levels/ranks of the KGS people you chatted with about this ? This example may illustrate how much distance can exist between some amateur dans versus pros.

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Post #23 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:45 am 
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EdLee wrote:
[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.


Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?

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Post #24 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:05 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?
Hi Abyssinica,

First, let me say in our recent exchanges, it's not my intention at all to have any unpleasant feelings. So, I'm sorry if I've caused some bad feeling for you.
I almost got into a big(ger) fight with another forum member last night. Very luckily for me, he first reached out to me in PM -- and small world indeed, we just confirmed a few minutes ago that he and I had actually met in person at a Go event a few years ago; and we are having a nice conversation in PM.

Let me think about how to approach your question.

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #25 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:33 am 
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Then let me start by stating that it's my opinion that any sort of mistakes, if recognised as mistakes, shouldn't be ignored or tossed aside simple because it's in a part of the game that doesn't seem to matter much. A lot of people who seem to say things like "fuseki mistakes don't matter because you'll just die in the middle game" miss the point. The point isn't to completely disregard a mistake because it's not seen as as important. The point is to acknowledge it as a mistake, find a better move, and then move on but not spend too much effort on the lesser mistake unless you're doing it for fun.

Some people say a 5 point mistake doesn't matter so early, but I think that if you can recognise the mistake, why not fix it and gain an extra 5 points? (Or just not lose it in the first place)

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Post #26 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:43 am 
Oza
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Abyssinica wrote:
EdLee wrote:
[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.


Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?


Maybe it would be better first to ascertain if a mistake was made or not before we wax theoretical.

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #27 Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:41 pm 
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It's an interesting question. I used to think the shoulder hit was a punishment for black's mistake of the pincer, but now I am not so sure. That's because black's lower right corner gets bigger and stronger in the process. Perhaps white should try to approach that from the outside first and if black answers solidly with the shimari then white can feel happier in playing the shoulder hit as the shimari then becomes a bit inefficient. The problem is white should also defend on the lower side so sente is a problem. So perhaps white does that first and then creates miai of the shoulder hit and the left side.

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Post #28 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:41 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
EdLee wrote:
[*]At our levels, we don't lose the game there; shoulder hit or otherwise. We make much bigger and more serious mistakes elsewhere.


Do you think this somehow invalidates making mistakes in the first place as long as "there are bigger mistakes elsewhere"?


I agree that at our level one should not expect big leaps of improvement from ruling out who's right in opening patterns, the wisdom of old Kato or the high dans at KGS. It's an interesting debate and it may deliver the marginal value which high dans or pros are looking for. At our level, it remains fun to follow the debate or even partake in it but surely it's a waste of time compared to the usual regime of learning the basics, play, tsumego, review ...

In the larger scheme of things, studying go is a waste of time for all of us and we should perhaps just spend our time on what we like to study. But IF improvement is a major driver (and rank a measure of that) than it's safe to say studying Chinese fuseki variations at this point is mostly futile and a recipe for frustration (as rank will not go up due to thàt).

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #29 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:59 am 
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I don't think it's a waste of time. I think it may only be a less efficient use of time. But if you consider studying and thinking about such positions fun, then by all means do it. In my opinion, if you have found any mistake then you shouldn't ignore it and cast it aside off handedly because there are better mistakes to correct.

If you're sitting and pondering whether or not something's a mistake for two hours straight in this stage of the game, then maybe you have a point.

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #30 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:46 am 
Oza

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Abyssinica wrote:
I don't think it's a waste of time. I think it may only be a less efficient use of time. But if you consider studying and thinking about such positions fun, then by all means do it. In my opinion, if you have found any mistake then you shouldn't ignore it and cast it aside off handedly because there are better mistakes to correct.

If you're sitting and pondering whether or not something's a mistake for two hours straight in this stage of the game, then maybe you have a point.


Well, playing or not playing Q10, for example, is really only a mistake if you and your opponent know how to play from there without bigger mistakes. If you don't know what makes it favourable or unfavourable, and how to use it that way on this board, you may get completely different results from it. The larger mistakes that arise later overshadow the smaller mistake.

Perhaps, it's a mistake because in a particular line stemming from black's strongest resistance, black can force white to collapse. If you can't play out that line yourself without memorising it, there's no point in thinking of it as a mistake. Similarly, if your opponent plays a mistake that can get you a 2 point gain following some particular line, you need to be able to follow through on it or it's not worth thinking of it as a mistake at your level.

You don't have infinite time to learn or play go, so it's worth going for the 90% solution: spend 10% of the time to resolve the 90% of easy mistakes, and leave the edge cases for later since they require much more time to solve things that come up much less frequently.

The other argument would be that as you get stronger, specific errors in joseki, etc. seem to fix themselves without explicitly learning the situation. As an example, take a look at the 6 kyu noseki page on Sensei's library.


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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #31 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:42 pm 
Honinbo

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As far as I know, Kato was right. However, in the decades since he wrote the book, his idea of the one space pincer has not caught on with other pros. Pour moi, I like thickness, but as Black I would be satisfied with the one space extension, since the R-09 stone looks well placed after that.

OTOH, I do not agree with the Q-10 shoulder blow. As Uberdude points out, Black can build up strength in the bottom right quadrant after that. Which is how you are supposed to use thickness, BTW. Each of P-08, P-09, and P-10 is superior, IMO. I like P-09, but P-08 may well be best.

As is well known, I am a proponent of studying the opening. But I regard studying specific variations of the Chinese Fuseki, or any other, as akin to studying joseki, something that is best postponed. :)

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #32 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:15 pm 
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Since i am back to playing lots of games, in order not to create mess in Game Analysis Forum, i decided to continue asking my questions here.

I nearly resigned in this game after my big reading mistake at bottom side. My questions can be found at the game, thanks for your help as always!

My old 4 dan KGS friend (he's 1 dan now and inactive) indicated that i read long sequences but not enough variations. Quoting his words; instead of trying to read 11-12 moves and 1 variation, just read 3-4 moves but 4-5 variations while fighting. I try to focus on that in my next games.



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Post #33 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:14 pm 
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Hi PlaySlow,

:w24: Atari o16. If B runs, you net at o14 -- B loses more.

:w34: I probably wouldn't play your 1-space jump/pincer. Either C (3-3) as you suggest (simple), or, double approach to start a fight.
The bottom is all 3rd line stones -- very little development -- seems not urgent at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #34 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:24 am 
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Opening:

White gets ahead due to Black's mistake 19 and subsequent superfluous play 23 in the top right
Move 26 represents an interesting question on direction of play: what do the other readers think here?

Middle game:

A bad choice at 34 leads to needless fighting in the middle game. Still, there is not really a problem
45 and 47 are very good fighting moves and Black ends up catching all White's cutting stones (57). This would be decisive at about high kyu level

However, Black plays a couple of self defeating moves (73, 83, 105) and White astutely gets back into the game

Endgame:

Here White outmaneuvers Black by and large, by taking all the big points and keeping the initiative.
The end result of +14,5 is a fine display of how to win in the endgame.

Full review:



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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #35 Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:12 pm 
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Another game of mine with my 10k acc.
I am seriously trying to get over my ladder anxiety. Trying to play better instead of concentrating on getting the win.. I also started solving Graded Go Problems Volume 2-3 again.

My questions & review can be found in the sgf. I won pretty without any fights because my opponent played many slow moves. Also he entered my chinese area immediately, which worked well for me.



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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #36 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:58 am 
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Opening:

Black gets a comfortable opening due to White's cramped invasion but above all because Black plays very naturally.
Up to 71, Black gets a wonderful position overall, without any fighting.

Middle game:

At 74, Black wonders how to convert his influence. Several options are being discussed here.
83 is an inexplicable bad technical decision, in the light of all previous good moves.
95 Black does some damage control but seems to be more worried about the local territory than the global position.
113 is a peep to remove from the repertoire
119 indicates that Black is probably a bit too confident in victory and has become lazy
126 White wastes a chance to take advantage of Black's bad shape in the corner. All groups are safe now and Black is still 10 points ahead.

Endgame:

127 - 173: Black gets 4 of the 5 biggest endgame moves and increases the advantage to over 20.


Conclusion:


White never tried to win the game. Black won due to much better technique and direction of play.

Full review:



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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #37 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:38 am 
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Thank you very much for your comments Knotwilg, you encouraged me a lot! The comment about being ahead makes me a worse player cannot be more right though. I have lost too many games with small reading mistakes or playing very fast when fighting that it made me play like a coward when i'm ahead. I believe it will not effect me further if i try to concentrate on playing better instead of giving too much importance in winning. After all i am just 9-10 kyu player, it is funny that i think too much about my ranking, sometimes i cannot find unhandicapped opponents in KGS since my rank is too low and move to Tygem :)

For playing better I am trying to focus some small stuff as Dwyrin suggested in his youtube video for "ladder anxiety";

1. In Fuseki;
1.1 Do I or my opponent have weak group? If yes, try to attack it.
1.2 Where is the big move?
1.3 Can i build moyo?
2. While attacking;
2.1 Check weakness
2.2 Get the biggest benefit
2.3 Try to use severe moves
3. Do not rush without reading 4-5 moves ahead at least.
4. Try to have no weak groups.

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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #38 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:59 am 
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A rather fast game i played. Did not think much and played poorly. Got some questions about how to attack enemy stones. Questions, which made me confused can be found in the sgf, at moves;

12
20
42
44
74
76
90
108
I was Black.
Thanks for the help in advance!



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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #39 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:44 pm 
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The problem in this game was, ironically, slow play. Fortunately, White tries to play even slower.

At :b75: the endgame has already begun but both players don't realize this and treat the centre as bigger than it really is.

At :b91: Black misses the last chance to take what has been the biggest move on the board since :b29:, first as a stabilizer, now as an endgame move. White grabs it and the game turns into his favor.

At 116, White takes a comfortable lead and after two rather desperate moves by Black, the game is sealed with 126.

Only at 157, Black picks the third of the 3 major moves which were lying about at move 75 when the endgame begun. But by then the game was long over.

Full review:



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 Post subject: Re: PlaySlow
Post #40 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:04 pm 
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Two main lessons learned at last game;

- If there are both white and black walls staring at the same center territory, there
might not be a center territory, so i should check for bigger moves.
- If there are no attacking moves i can take shimari. And also angle plays are generally for mutual reinforcement.

I did even not notice that i give much importance till i examine your review Knotwilg, thank you very much.

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