Cele's try to create controlled complexity

Uberdude · **#21**

If your opponent doesn't continue in the normal place in the joseki (i.e. jump out at top to prevent getting closed in) then play there yourself should be first thought of what to do to take advantage of that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 6.2 Better $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X O . . . 4 1 O O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . . . . 2 X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your 4 is a small move: 4-5 is a good exchange for white. He didn't need to jump to 5, he could have come out at the top. But your game result is ok as he still needs another move in the corner, but you would rather have not made the 4-5 exchange.

P.S. What's going on in the top left? That looks like someone tried to make a joseki and failed rather than play moves that make local sense.

Or because white has a strong position on the top left the turn isn't actually so big (only big to threaten white corner, not for your potential there) so I might be tempted to simply tenuki if white can't attack you much (pushing a second time made you stronger). f2 looks big. Or something on the left moyo but that's all weird with your second line stone. Or (ninja-d by ez4u) take the corner for yourself with the slide and make white play the boring area.

ez4u · **#22**

The problem is that White's strong position in the upper left makes the top uninteresting. White understood this better than Black. When White extended you should have slid into the corner rather than block the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X O . . 5 . 1 O O . 4 . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . , . . 2 X X , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Celebrir · **#23**

Uberdude wrote:

Your 4 is a small move: 4-5 is a good exchange for white. He didn't need to jump to 5, he could have come out at the top. But your game result is ok as he still needs another move in the corner, but you would rather have not made the 4-5 exchange.

I kinda feared this because all my sense say it looks terrible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 6.5 Not really painful? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X . X O . X O . . . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . O . . . . X X X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . X . X , O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now a invasion at a seems completly weird while it might have been possible at 6.2 with the :b4:

exchange.

I like the idea of sliding into the corner. I guess I have to improve on making the opponent play in the unintresting idea, that plan didn't occur to me at this time.

Uberdude wrote:

P.S. What's going on in the top left? That looks like someone tried to make a joseki and failed rather than play moves that make local sense.

Yeah, that was me messing up the joseki I played the most times with something I didn't realized before:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 6.5 Not really painful? $$ ----------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 6 . a . . . . $$ | . . 7 . 5 O . 3 0 . . $$ | . . X , 1 4 . 8 . . . $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'm used that much to my opponents playing at a that I didn't realized the change before I already played at :b9:

Celebrir · **#24**

I had a weird corner seqeunce in this 3-stone handicap game on ogs today:

The game:

Of course every comment is welcome, but here is the situation that I thought over the most:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc 7.1 The start of the game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 6 1 b . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . c 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

looks very weird, but I'm not sure I did the correct continution. a looks forced, but can you maybe play at b or c?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.2 Continuation with b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 1 . O . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 7 X . X . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Is that good? W only is small in the corner and maybe B can attack :wc:

but B's shape looks very weird to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.3 Continuation with c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This looks a little bit like the normal joseki, but W had a huge success in the corner with strengthening his two space jump in sente. Doesn't seem like a good variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.4 Continuation with a - The game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O B . . . . 8 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 B . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I have a small live in the corner but my circled stones looks bad. They lived and I won the game, but this group kinda hunted me the whole game and I would have prefered to have something else in this corner.

(edit: Fixed diagram indexes)

Knotwilg · **#25**

A good idea to play with is to increase the size of the sacrifice.

A stone in atari has 1 liberty. If you add a stone, the chain (usually) has 3 liberties and after White's next move, it still has 2 liberties. This gives you additional tempo to do something with the rest of position.

So, it's not "either add a stone and save that part OR sacrifice" but also consider "add a stone AND sacrifice".

Have a look at how this idea can be applied in your situation.

Celebrir · **#26**

Knotwilg wrote:

A good idea to play with is to increase the size of the sacrifice.

A stone in atari has 1 liberty. If you add a stone, the chain (usually) has 3 liberties and after White's next move, it still has 2 liberties. This gives you additional tempo to do something with the rest of position.

So, it's not "either add a stone and save that part OR sacrifice" but also consider "add a stone AND sacrifice".

Have a look at how this idea can be applied in your situation.

Yeah, I did that but discarded it relativly fast because :w2:

at 7.4 (The game variation) seems to make a sacrifice very hard because I can't cut the right anymore:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.5 Trying to sac 2 stones - 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 5 3 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This seems to be better than 7.3 but still like a big advantage to W

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.5 Trying to sac 2 stones - 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 1 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O X . . 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This only adds some forcing moves I could have added in the game as well later but after them I have the choice between living in the corner (a) and sacrificing and cutting (b). This might be the best cutting sequence but it still feels like a success for W in the corner.

Knotwilg · **#27**

Good attempts. The important thing is that you consider it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Sacrifice 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 3 O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 6 4 X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | a . . 9 .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

You could even sacrifice twice. After this sequence, there's still a bit of aji in the original :b1:

chain. The points marked "a" are sente.
White must now consider answering at ''b'' which might be heavy. I assume you have a bit of strength in the lower left to back up your tactics here. I'm not sure this is actualy a good result, but it feels better than living small in the corner.

Edit: this technique is described at Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth

skydyr · **#28**

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.2 Continuation with b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 1 . O . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 7 X . X . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This sequence looks reasonable to me. Perhaps :b3:

could be an atari at D18 to disconnect in sente, and black can follow up against either side or get a favourable ko, if you want to be more direct?

In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.

Celebrir · **#29**

Knotwilg wrote:

You could even sacrifice twice. After this sequence, there's still a bit of aji in the original :b1:

chain. The points marked "a" are sente.
White must now consider answering at ''b'' which might be heavy. I assume you have a bit of strength in the lower left to back up your tactics here. I'm not sure this is actualy a good result, but it feels better than living small in the corner.

Edit: this technique is described at Sensei's: http://senseis.xmp.net/?AddASecondStoneAndSacrificeBoth

That is a great idea which I have to admit I missed. In theory I know this technique but I guess not good enought to actually remember it in a game situation.

skydyr wrote:

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 7.2 Continuation with b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O 1 . O . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 7 X . X . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This sequence looks reasonable to me. Perhaps :b3:

could be an atari at D18 to disconnect in sente, and black can follow up against either side or get a favourable ko, if you want to be more direct?

The atari is a good idea, I missed that I don't have to protect at :b3:

in that case.

skydyr wrote:

In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.

"LL" corner means living corner ? The problem was more that both of his groups were stable while my center group was not. At least that is how it was played in the game :roll:

Uberdude · **#30**

Even in the game where you lived in the corner you got a far worse result than you could have done. Why did you play a17? Think about more efficient ways to accomplish the same goal.

skydyr · **#31**

Celebrir wrote:

skydyr wrote:

In the sequence you posted, black still has some nice attacking moves to play against the top group and the pincer stone isn't looking all that spectacular, especially with a black LL corner.

"LL" corner means living corner ? The problem was more that both of his groups were stable while my center group was not. At least that is how it was played in the game :roll:

LL is lower left. Since black had the 4-4 and white had nothing local, white's left side prospects with his stone aren't spectacular.

Celebrir · **#32**

Hi everyone! After some busy time where I only played slow games on ogs, I finally have a little bit more time now again

I watched some professional games on http://www.tvbaduk.com and some subbed on https://www.youtube.com/user/sundaygolessons (which I can highly recommend). Other than that I only played and reviewed for training. Here are two of the better games:

When I finally started to play games with normal time controls again, I realised that the ranking seems to be lower. At least I have the feeling it is much easier to be succesful. Is that only me or something general? However, there was one situation I have a question about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.1 How to attack $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b[i] and c[/i]:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.2 a in 8.1 $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . 9 . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . 5 1 2 8 O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This doesn't seem good if :w9:

is neccassary to avoid a counterattack which I feel it is. Or am I wrong?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.3 b in 8.1 $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 1 7 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . 9 8 4 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , 0 O X 5 . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O 6 X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems a very hard to fight situation as well. Of course there is another variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.4 Passive b in 8.1 $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . 7 . . 1 . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I wonder whether this is to passive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.5 c in 8.1 $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . 9 1 2 5 . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . 7 6 4 3 . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X 0 . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.6 Continuation of 8.5 $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . 9 . . 6 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . 0 8 7 5 2 O O X O . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . 4 3 O X X O 1 O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X X . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the best aggressive sequence I can find and the actual game. However, both groups managed to survive and I'm wondering whether the more passive 8.4 is better. However, you may notice that B's bottom right managed to escape, but is not yet fully alive. Due to an in my opinion overplay I managed to catch it later.If you're intrested, here is the full game:

Charles Matthews · **#33**

Celebrir wrote:

However, there was one situation I have a question about:

[spoiler]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.1 How to attack $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b[i] and c[/i]:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W My thought $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . 1 . q . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushed up, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

Charles Matthews · **#34**

Charles Matthews wrote:

Celebrir wrote:

However, there was one situation I have a question about:

[spoiler]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 8.1 How to attack $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . b c . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . a . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X , . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was pondering what the best attack in the lower right is. My options were a, b[i] and c[/i]:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W My thought $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

Celebrir · **#35**

Charles Matthews wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W My thought $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

That's for sure something I should have considered and try to consider more in the feature, thank you! However, I'm not sure how it continues here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.7 Result of indirection? $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . 3 . . . . 8 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . 6 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 1 4 5 . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X 2 . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would it continue like this? To me it feels like both groups can escape quite easily and hard to double attack because they can both escape into different directions

Charles Matthews · **#36**

Celebrir wrote:

Charles Matthews wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W My thought $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . 2 1 . q . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X p . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Indirection. Here you are happy if Black pushes up as shown, because it weakens the heavy group to the right. Another way to think is that p and q become miai for good shape.

Strengthen the weak group first.

That's for sure something I should have considered and try to consider more in the feature, thank you! However, I'm not sure how it continues here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.7 Result of indirection? $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . 3 . . . . 8 9 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . 6 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . 1 4 5 . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X 2 . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would it continue like this? To me it feels like both groups can escape quite easily and hard to double attack because they can both escape into different directions

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is thin (1) $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position, it seems to me, Black is already stretched. For example, White can now play at a, and not worry too much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is thin (2) $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 5 . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example, the cut with :w5:

here feels very different from the immediate cut you showed. The corner is settled.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is thin (3) $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 1 5 . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 3 4 . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also there is this neat double hane sequence, in reserve. Since :w7:

works, it means that Black's jump out with the circled stone is not the greatest shape.

Celebrir · **#37**

Charles Matthews wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is thin (2) $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 5 . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example, the cut with :w5:

here feels very different from the immediate cut you showed. The corner is settled.

feels weird because after the right group beeing attacked, the right group should be defended, shouldn't it? I would play like this as B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.8 Prevent the cut $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X 1 . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Charles Matthews wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black is thin (3) $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . X O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 1 5 . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 6 3 4 . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also there is this neat double hane sequence, in reserve. Since :w7:

works, it means that Black's jump out with the circled stone is not the greatest shape.

Sure, this works, but B is expected to have a weaker position and result. Therefore I think B can play much more peaceful and still be happy:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.9 B plays peaceful $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . 5 4 X O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . 6 X O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O . . 1 X O O . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . 7 O X 8 . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If W would defend at :w8:

instead of playing at :w2:

, B should be able to easily escape. If W plays like this, B can fix his shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.10 B is good $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X a . 0 X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 9 8 X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O 7 X O . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O 2 1 X 6 O . O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O 5 . X X O O . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . b O 3 X . X O . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because 'a' is an atari, the cut of :w8:

does not work. Besides B has the opiton of 'b'. I would call this successful for B because he only lost 2 stones and the left was not weakened much

skydyr · **#38**

Celebrir wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 8.10 B is good $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X a . 0 X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O 9 8 X O O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O 7 X O . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O 2 1 X 6 O . O . O X . . , O . . | $$ | . . . O 5 . X X O O . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . b O 3 X . X O . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because 'a' is an atari, the cut of :w8:

does not work. Besides B has the opiton of 'b'. I would call this successful for B because he only lost 2 stones and the left was not weakened much

At this point, white's center group is undeniably alive, while black's rightwards group can easily come under severe attack. The cut still works, as does the placement, but black can't put pressure on the left to help the group.

Uberdude · **#39**

Charles's proposed move looks a bit odd to me. That's not to say I think it is bad, just that it is not a normal shape in my go vocabulary (which may in this instance be smaller than his). The one point jump of b doesn't look bad to me (though perhaps a bit wishy-washy): I feel like maybe that leaning move could end up strengthening the black lower middle group when I might prefer to jump out and then cap it. I do agree about wanting to get that placement inside the lower right group which totally settles the corner. Something white must be aware of is if he attacks that group a bit much and black gets to connect that stone during the fight then white's corner group owes an extension on the side to settle so there are some chances for black to counter-attack. And I don't get those recent sequences, they seem like an irrelevant detour.

Celebrir · **#40**

skydyr wrote:

At this point, white's center group is undeniably alive, while black's rightwards group can easily come under severe attack. The cut still works, as does the placement, but black can't put pressure on the left to help the group.

I don't believe you should ever in the near future as black involve attacking the middle group because that can heavily damage your left group. Otherwise the whole sequence on the left might look different and much more deadly for black.

Uberdude wrote:

Charles's proposed move looks a bit odd to me. That's not to say I think it is bad, just that it is not a normal shape in my go vocabulary (which may in this instance be smaller than his). The one point jump of b doesn't look bad to me (though perhaps a bit wishy-washy): I feel like maybe that leaning move could end up strengthening the black lower middle group when I might prefer to jump out and then cap it.

I don't see which one point jump for B you mean. Did you mean W's one point jump in my first proposed variations?

Uberdude wrote:

I do agree about wanting to get that placement inside the lower right group which totally settles the corner. Something white must be aware of is if he attacks that group a bit much and black gets to connect that stone during the fight then white's corner group owes an extension on the side to settle so there are some chances for black to counter-attack.

Intresting. I discarded it because it is gote and I first wanted to attack B's escape route. I didn't worry that much about W's right group because I hoped to get the extension naturally while attacking or getting ̀the atari in the corner.

Uberdude wrote:

And I don't get those recent sequences, they seem like an irrelevant detour.

Yeah, we might have overanalyzed a little bit there but it seemed and still seems intresting enough on its own in my opinion :study:

Cele's try to create controlled complexity

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