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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #221 Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:58 pm 
Dies in gote

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kvasir wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . . X O . O 3 4 . |
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$$ . . O . . . 9 7 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------+
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$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . X O O . . X . . |
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$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
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Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +-------------------+
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$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
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$$ . . X O O . 6 X . . |
$$ . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
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I guess this is the answer
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . X O O 8 . X 7 . |
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kvasir wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X X |
$$ O O O O X X . X O O |
$$ . . . X O O O O X 2 |
$$ . . X O O . X X 1 . |
$$ . . O . . . 6 5 3 0 |
$$ . . . . . . X 7 4 . |
$$ , . . . . . . 8 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------+
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$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X X |
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$$ . . O . . . . . . . |
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NGfW
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 8→D6
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . . X O . O 1 2 . |
$$ . . X O O . . X 3 6 |
$$ . . O . . . . . 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm4
$$ --------------------+
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$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . . X O . O O X . |
$$ . . X O O . . X O . |
$$ . . O . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
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NGfB
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm13 15→F3
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ O X . X O X X X X . |
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$$ . . . X O . O O X . |
$$ . . X O O O . X . X |
$$ . . O . . . O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |[/go]


No good for white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . X O O O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O X X . X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X O X . X O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O O O O X X . . 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . X O O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Last edited by rhwocns on Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:38 pm, edited 52 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #222 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:56 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2408
Location: Ghent, Belgium
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Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
This was a strange but satisfying game at the OGS 1k-1d level. I won by 80 points after a pretty straightforward piece of fighting. I continue playing the 5-4 point to have a more influence oriented opening. In this case my opponent allowed a shimari at 23.

In the light of the discussion elsewhere I'd indicate the following as either "dan moves" or moves I've probably acquired since evaluating my games with KataGo:

23 - playing away because of a slow opponent move (gote)
31 - the pincer/invasion, playing more severely in these circumstances
37 - a known technique, descending to connect either way (miai)
45 & 49 - two good peeps, carefully evaluated since KG dislikes peeping for the sake of peeping
(most of my mistakes come from 50-110)
113 - playing an angle point thanks to the backup of the hanging connection
(after that knock-out, the lead went from 40 to 80, with some minor hiccups)


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #223 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:03 am 
Oza

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Quote:
31 - the pincer/invasion, playing more severely in these circumstances


To continue my baseball theme, here's something out of left field for you.

This is an example of my language-based approach to things, as opposed to a numbers base: I can't run katago so I have no idea what katago will make of it. I could be way, way off, but even if I prove to be right my approach will probably seem alien to most L19ers. Still, in the interests of research...

31 seems fine to me. But I note you can't make your mind up what to call it. That indicates confusion, which is surely not a good mindset. However, your over-riding feeling is wanting to play 'more severely.' That seems good - but hold on to that thought for the moment.

Invasion or pincer or both? Well, it can't be a pincer. But it is an uchikomi. That is usually rendered as 'invasion.' Now I don't want to go so far as to say that is wrong, but I think it's misleading. There is a strong association of 'occupation' of the enemy's territory with 'invasion'. In other words, an invasion is a prelude to occupation from within. That is what happened in the game, and so if 'invasion' really was the intended idea, it has been achieved.

But to me an uchikomi, in its Japanese sense, which feels more natural to me here, is driving in a wedge. That creates a different set of associations - and therefore leads to different play.

So when White plays 32, the prime candidate that springs to mind for me is not your nobi 33, but the kosumi one point above. That continues the idea of driving in the wedge. In territory terms, it results in annexation as opposed to occupation.

That's half my point. Now severity. In games play we make a distinction between a play that is 'severe' and one that is 'sharp'. A severe move is one that results in bullying (or overconcentration or whatever) by one side against the other. A sharp move is one that results in complications for both sides. Or, to put it another way, that is severe for both sides. But such a way of play is not really severe for you - you are too busy defending yourself to get in a real hammer blow (i.e. an uchikomi). In my view, the nobi to 33 in the game is a sharp move: it results in complications for both sides. In contrast, my kosumi is truly is a 'severe' move (unilaterally, and correctly so, given Black's thickness to the left).

I'm exposing myself to possible ridicule once we know what katago will tell us. However, I am quietly confident because this particular kind of situation has been in my mind for decades. The nobi at both ends (33 and 37) is one of those tesujis we were introduced to when all we had available was Go Review and the like. It had bling! I imagine that was part of the Nihon Ki-in's idea: to make go appear to us as truly a beautiful game. I was certainly captivated and played this tesuji more than a few times. But it never really worked out for me the way I hoped. I also noticed that pros didn't seem to play it much - they preferred the kosumi (or even tenuki). But there were a few instances that were famous (e.g. Shuwa liked double nobis). Then it dawned on me that they were famous partly because they stood out, i.e. they were NOT standard - despite, as you say, us being taught it was a standard miai-connection idea. But all that glitters is not gold. Later on, it further dawned on me that the famous instances that did work worked because they were not the result of an uchikomi. They may have been the result of an invasion (English sense), but, as I say, that's really a different idea. They were more about sabaki, say, than trying to be severe.

It is now the pantomime season here, and so I feel as if I walk on stage as the wordy old dame ready to be assailed by custard pies from the numerous numbers villains who lurk on L19. But katago is supposed to be dispassionate. (Oh no it isn't! Oh yes it is!). What does it say about the kosumi for 33? What does this have to do with the price of fish?

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #224 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:29 am 
Dies in gote

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ | . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X . X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X X . X . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
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$$ | . . O . . . 7 . . . X . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . X X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . O . O O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 5 . . . , . . X O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . X X . X . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 1 O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 O X X X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . O O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . X . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . O O O X . X . 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . X . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . X X X X . X X . X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . P P P P P P P X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . X X X X . X X . X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . 2 O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . 4 3 1 . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . 2 . O . O X . . O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . S . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | S . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . 9 7 b . . . . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . 8 2 X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | a 3 4 O 5 O X . . O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . 6 O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . X . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X O O . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O O . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . S . . . . . X . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 5 1 . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . 4 . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . . . O . . . X O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . 2 . . O X . . X X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . X . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . O X X . . O . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | 4 . O . . O O . O . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . . . O . . . X O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . 5 . . O X . . X X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . X . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . 3 4 . . X . . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . O X X . . O . . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . . O . . O O . O . _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X O O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 X . . O . . O O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O 5 4 O O 7 . . O X X X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X O O . . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , X M . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . O O X O O O O O O |
$$ | . . O . . O O . . . O X X X X . X X X |
$$ | . O X X . X . X . O O O O O X . X . X |
$$ | . O X O . O X X O O X . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X X X X . X X X O X . . |
$$ | . X O O O O O O O X . . . . O X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O . O O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . X . O . . X O X . O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O O O . X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . X O X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . . X O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by rhwocns on Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm, edited 135 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #225 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:51 am 
Oza
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
31 - the pincer/invasion, playing more severely in these circumstances


But to me an uchikomi, in its Japanese sense, which feels more natural to me here, is driving in a wedge.


Believe it or not, I thought of including "wedge" in the list of options. I didn't think it was a pincer, because of it being "pre-counterpincered" nor an invasion because of the missing idea of "occupying enemy territory" which you stated. But I didn't think it was a wedge, because that has a notion of contact to me - and I mean, regardless of general use, intuitively a wedge is in touch with either side of the wedged.

"Separation" maybe?

Quote:
Now severity. In games play we make a distinction between a play that is 'severe' and one that is 'sharp'. A severe move is one that results in bullying (or overconcentration or whatever) by one side against the other. A sharp move is one that results in complications for both sides. Or, to put it another way, that is severe for both sides. But such a way of play is not really severe for you - you are too busy defending yourself to get in a real hammer blow (i.e. an uchikomi). In my view, the nobi to 33 in the game is a sharp move: it results in complications for both sides. In contrast, my kosumi is truly is a 'severe' move (unilaterally, and correctly so, given Black's thickness to the left).


Thanks for the elaboration. I agree with the notions of sharp and severe - i.e. they resonate with me.

Quote:
The nobi at both ends (33 and 37) is one of those tesujis we were introduced to when all we had available was Go Review and the like. It had bling! I imagine that was part of the Nihon Ki-in's idea: to make go appear to us as truly a beautiful game. I was certainly captivated and played this tesuji more than a few times. But it never really worked out for me the way I hoped. I also noticed that pros didn't seem to play it much - they preferred the kosumi (or even tenuki). But there were a few instances that were famous (e.g. Shuwa liked double nobis). Then it dawned on me that they were famous partly because they stood out, i.e. they were NOT standard - despite, as you say, us being taught it was a standard miai-connection idea. But all that glitters is not gold. Later on, it further dawned on me that the famous instances that did work worked because they were not the result of an uchikomi. They may have been the result of an invasion (English sense), but, as I say, that's really a different idea. They were more about sabaki, say, than trying to be severe.


Rest assured: KataGo suggests the kosumi but doesn't think the nobi is a mistake. The descent tesuji at 37 is obviously necessary to make 33 work.

You are right: the combo is a kind of "gluttony". I see it and I play it. I like the straight shape better than the diagonal shape too. But just like in the other thread, I realize we may have been fed with the particular, sketchy, rather than the generic, solid.

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Post #226 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:47 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Believe it or not, I thought of including "wedge" in the list of options. I didn't think it was a pincer, because of it being "pre-counterpincered" nor an invasion because of the missing idea of "occupying enemy territory" which you stated. But I didn't think it was a wedge, because that has a notion of contact to me - and I mean, regardless of general use, intuitively a wedge is in touch with either side of the wedged.

"Separation" maybe?


I want to say a firm No. But we are stuck with decades of poor rendering of Japanese terms, and there's only so much pissing in the wind one wants to do.

The two terms that use 'wedge' in English are for the Japanese terms wariuchi and warikomi. That is, they both use the verb 'waru', which means to divide, separate, cleave asunder, split, bisect, chop a dead parrot apart, etc. We tend to use 'splitting attack' for wariuchi (though 'wedge' does appear), which is fine for the waru part, but there's no actual attack involved. Indeed, it's usually gote rather than sente! The -uchi just adds an idea of forcefulness. But if you use 'split' there you should surely use 'split' in warikomi. In fact, the whole point of a warikomi is that it does split. A wedge (e.g. as in a door wedge) has no separation of its own. It's a tapered object that simply gets jammed into something. It may cause a surface crack, but on its own it doesn't cleave asunder, i.e. it doesn't waru. The separation association in English comes from the phrase 'drive a wedge into', but even there the real sense is creating a crack rather than a complete fissure.

Uchikomi comes from 'hit' and 'into'. Which is a wedging action. In military terms, the Japanese would not use uchikomi for, say, the D-Day invasion. They would say shinryaku. But they could say uchikomi for the air attacks that preceded the invasion landings. These air attacks were hammer blows that created wedges/cracks in the German positions. In go, the Japanese idea is to disrupt the opponent's positions so that he can't get settled territory. It has nothing to do with living inside. Some people seem to make the mistake of thinking -komi means 'in' therefore = 'inside.' But as a verbal suffix the meaning is 'into', 'inwards'.

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Post #227 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:56 am 
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I haven't looked at the whole game but it struck me that these are the approximate moves I'd want for black in the next few moves and there is also the possibility of doing something in the upper left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , A . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . A . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . A . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I was perplexed that black was trying to build the framework on the upper side. To me :b25: is something like a "one more thing first" move and :b29: is attacking from the wrong side. Neither is much of a mistake but I feel like if black plays anything in the upper left corner it should be something like a, b or c. I will admit I have already looked at katago because I thought K3 was important, so I am very confident :D but one thing I have been learning from KataGo is that big moves in the opening do have a priority order that is rather similar to what we learned in the past. For example I'd say :b29: is smaller than d and e is the more usual attack. KataGo debates f and e instead of :b29:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . 5 4 . . . . d . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . 6 . . . , . . . . X , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . f . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Anyway, none of these are big mistakes if they can even be called mistakes. White was the one making big mistakes in the opening.

About the middle game. I think black could have captured in a net on move 57 or jumped to L9 to keep the attack going. It looks to me like white jumps ahead of black on move 64 because black effectively pushed from behind starting at 57.

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Post #228 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:49 am 
Oza
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kvasir wrote:
I haven't looked at the whole game but it struck me that these are the approximate moves I'd want for black in the next few moves and there is also the possibility of doing something in the upper left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , A . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . A . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X X . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X O X . A . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I was perplexed that black was trying to build the framework on the upper side. To me :b25: is something like a "one more thing first" move


:b25: was mostly inspired by "if you have sente, look for the largest open area", which is the top. Given the overall position, a 3-3 invasion would have been better - but I got a little tired of those :)

:b29: is probably the wrong direction but with the open skirt at the bottom I saw no prospect of building there and was planning to answer an approach with a simple settling keima, but then I chose to "wedge" with :b31: instead.


Quote:
About the middle game. I think black could have captured in a net on move 57 or jumped to L9 to keep the attack going. It looks to me like white jumps ahead of black on move 64 because black effectively pushed from behind starting at 57.


Oh absolutely, not even considering the net was a poor piece of go playing. There are 3 moves from this game in my mistakes series:

http://senseis.xmp.net?DietersMistakesIn2022/Problem36
http://senseis.xmp.net?DietersMistakesIn2022/Problem37
http://senseis.xmp.net?DietersMistakesIn2022/Problem38

Thanks!

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Post #229 Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:26 am 
Oza
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Mistake analysis at 30, 38 and 62

The highlight for me however is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 77 to 78
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | O . . O . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | O O O . . O X . X O . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O O X . X , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . b . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Before, I would likely have connected at A. Since I have been studying my games with KataGo, I recognize this as a "slow connection" and have become wary of playing bamboos or table shapes on auto-pilot. :w2: is what I came up with for a more active defense and it's the blue move by KataGo (competing with B globally).

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Post #230 Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:28 am 
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W78 is indeed a very nice move.

B43 was a bit of a sad retreat.Black could take the corner - but the most fun option for Black might be to try a large scale 'heavy plastering' sacrifice style with d12, and take outside strength.

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Post #231 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:02 am 
Oza
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A few months into 2022 these are the patterns in my mistakes, reformulated as positive actions;

1. Strategic choices
surround in sente (7)
cut/connect vulnerable groups; play elswhere if connecting is submissive (4)
reinforce weak stones if they help forming or destroying territories (3)
attack the bigger group (3)
sacrifice unimportant stones to become strong in the important area (3)
corner plays are big even in the middle game, especially when carried out so that one keeps the initiative (2)

The most important principle is to surround in sente. The sente part means that if the opponent doesn't answer, the group can be killed. If surrounding means it can be harassed next to gain some points, that may be offset by the opponent's move elsewhere. So if surrounding doesn't threaten to kill, then it might be better to play elsewhere myself. It requires L&D skills to make such a judgment so it's not a trivial decision process.

Likewise, cutting or connecting groups is valuable if both groups are somewhat vulnerable. In this case it doesn't mean they are both killable when disconnected but it's important that both are weak enough to be harassed next and the opponent can only reinforce one of them. If the connection or cut doesn't achieve this double threat, it's better to play elsewhere. If a connection saves 2 groups and simultaneously cuts vulnerable opponent groups, the move becomes very valuable.

2. Technique/tactics
see the tesuji (7)
correct cutting/connecting technique (3)
see local ko threats (2)

In many cases I simply didn't spot the tesuji. There's only one way to become better at it: more exercises, probably more difficult ones.
When the decision to cut or connect is proper, then still there are multiple ways of doing so and it's worthwhile spending time on selecting the best move.

3. Awareness/attitude

kill when you can and spot opportunities to do so / see the danger and defend (7)
read several alternatives 3 moves deep (3)

Many of my mistakes or even blunders were due to a lack of awareness about a situation changing due to activity in its vicinity. In other cases I was just too lazy to even consider quite obviously better moves than the one I played.

Given these patterns I'm going to play my next 10 games with this compass:

North: surround in sente / avoid being surrounded in sente
West: be aware of changing conditions to stable situations when activity spreads into their vicinity
East: cut and connect vulnerable groups & figure out the best way of doing so
South: (practice more tesuji like problems)

See https://senseis.xmp.net/?DietersMistakesIn2022


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Post #232 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:03 am 
Oza
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So here's an update on what's partly a vanity thread, partly a way for this extravert to keep up the motivation.

To give a bit of context to anyone who might be interested in my journey, I went from a beginner in 1995 to a 2 dan in 2001 and over the past 20+ years have been stuck at that level. There's still something in me that wants to get to 3d or even 4d but the big part of me doesn't think I have it in me, in terms of talent and devotion. In 2021 I intensified my efforts due to time having been freed up by the pandemic's impact on social life and this has resulted in the "mistakes" series on Sensei's Library. I have regained my 2d ranks at both OGS and KGS, which now appear to be well calibrated again, and I have the feeling the mistakes series and thorough AI review has improved or reinforced my conceptual thinking but won't pay any more dividends towards 3d.

Time to change the approach. There's a saying that you can't expect a considerable change in results if you don't change your approach. In particular you have to be willing to do what you might dread most. In my case that could be

- play longer games (or play blitz games, but I don't think so) because I need to find a way to read more and better during the game
- study joseki
- invert the focus and store good moves for posterity instead of mistakes

So, I will end the "mistakes" series and instead focus on those occasions where I was making a conscious choice between alternatives and made the right choice. I will start studying joseki. And I'm going to change my standard time settings from 5m+5x30s to 20m+5x1m.

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Post #233 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:48 am 
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I'll be interested to follow the new approach. I'm around the same level.

I'm a bit surprised that you've chosen to study joseki. The reason is that it's not unusual these days to see commentaries on 1d and 2d games along the lines "Move 40 - up to this point both sides have played almost perfectly", which would almost never happen pre-AI days. The "opening gospel according to AI" goes a long way!

My own conclusion from studying my games with AI is that the opening and joseki probably provide diminishing returns for improvement. In my highly subjective self-diagnosis the two main areas holding me back are 1) reading ability; and possibly related to that, 2) a solid 'safe' style that in practice is just not fast or dynamic enough to play at a higher level. AI has shown me how its possible to play more dynamically and the power of the tenuki, and I've made some minuscule improvements - but it needs good reading to carry it off effectively.

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Post #234 Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:09 am 
Oza
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dust wrote:
I'll be interested to follow the new approach. I'm around the same level.


Good to have a "follower" - let's follow each other then!

dust wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that you've chosen to study joseki. The reason is that it's not unusual these days to see commentaries on 1d and 2d games along the lines "Move 40 - up to this point both sides have played almost perfectly", which would almost never happen pre-AI days. The "opening gospel according to AI" goes a long way!


Perhaps you are right. I only chose this because it's something I've always steered away from, so if I change my approach that's an easy find.

dust wrote:
My own conclusion from studying my games with AI is that the opening and joseki probably provide diminishing returns for improvement. In my highly subjective self-diagnosis the two main areas holding me back are 1) reading ability; and possibly related to that, 2) a solid 'safe' style that in practice is just not fast or dynamic enough to play at a higher level. AI has shown me how its possible to play more dynamically and the power of the tenuki, and I've made some minuscule improvements - but it needs good reading to carry it off effectively.


Very close to my own conclusions. As you may have read, besides specific situations which just required better reading, the corrective heuristics I found were 1) surround in sente (but not necessarily when not sente) 2) avoid slow connections and heavy cuts 3) beware of fights spreading to positions with aji - check the impact 4) take some time to read out a race to capture or a L&D situation (subset of "read more" actually)

Perhaps I'll drop the joseki vow and just go for longer games with more reading.

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Post #235 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:07 am 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 268 to 268
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X X O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . O O X X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O O X X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . . . . O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . O X X O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X X O O . . . . O O X X O . O X . |
$$ | O X X . B O O . O O O X X O O O O O X |
$$ | O O X X W . O O X O X X X O X . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O X X X X . O X X . X . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X X O O X X O X O O O X X |
$$ | . O O O X O O X O O O X X . X X O X O |
$$ | . O X X X X O O X X O O X . X O O O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . . . . O O X X X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X X X X X O . O . O O . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . O O O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X X , X O X O X O . . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O O X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O O O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . O O X . . X O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This was a tight game where the ko at the marked stones was potentially decisive as it makes a local difference of 2 points and by my count we were close to that difference. White played :w1: as a ko threat. Is it a real ko threat or not?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 268 to 268
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 5 . X X O . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | a 4 b X O . O . . O O X X . X . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O . . O O X X X O X X . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . . . . O O O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . O X X O O X O X X |
$$ | X X X X O O . . . . O O X X O . O X . |
$$ | O X X . B O O . O O O X X O O O O O X |
$$ | O O X X W 2 O O X O X X X O X . X X . |
$$ | . O O X X O O X X X X . O X X . X . . |
$$ | . O X X X O X X O O X X O X O O O X X |
$$ | . O O O X O O X O O O X X . X X O X O |
$$ | . O X X X X O O X X O O X . X O O O O |
$$ | . O X X O X X . . . . O O X X X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O O X X X X X O . O . O O . . |
$$ | O O X . . . . . O O O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | O X X O O O X X X , X O X O X O . . . |
$$ | X . X X O X O O X X X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O O O X . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O . O O X . . X O O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes it is. :w5: is the tesuji. A and B are miai.

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Post #236 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:06 pm 
Oza
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In the context of changing my diet to finally reach 3d, I've played a correspondence game, allowing me all the time I need to read. It was very difficult to resist using AI or resist figuring out sequences offline with CGoban. I did use the editor to track the game and label points that I wanted to occupy if sente. I don't know what the ethics actually are for a correspondence game.

The quality of the game was much higher than my usual game and I won by resignation, about 25 points ahead in the endgame. The opponent didn't make it very difficult for me but some decisions required major reading. The key point in the game was a corner invasion which I could locally kill but which came with a lot of bad potential on the outside, however the opponent didn't exploit that potential all too well.

It's pretty satisfying to make no blunders and to see your thought process being mimicked in some of the opponent's moves. Definitely more fun than my usual half blitzing. So longer time limits are here to stay for a while.

Kudos to my opponent for allowing two undos for a touchscreen slip on my mobile, after which I decided not to use mobile again.

I'll post the analysis later.


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Post #237 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:04 am 
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Concerning the ethics, AI is of course forbidden. If you play on OGS, you are generally allowed to explore variations with your mouse on the analysis board, unless analysis is disabled.

Correspondence ranks are a bit inflated from my experience (I am weak 1d correspondence, weak 1k live games on OGS).

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Post #238 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:15 am 
Oza
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KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
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[go]$$W Moves 62 to 71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . 6 5 . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X 7 0 3 . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . . . 8 X 1 9 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , X O O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$W Expected
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . 6 5 . 7 . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X . 1 . 3 . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . . . 2 X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


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[go]$$W Moves 72 to 81
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b c . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . X O 1 3 2 8 |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X O X O a 5 |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . 0 9 X X O O 4 |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 6 |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , X O O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It seems White realized only at this point that a-b-c would suffer from shortage of liberties.

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[go]$$W Moves 82 to 91
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X O X O . O |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . X 4 X X O O X |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 1 X X X |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 5 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . X , X O O X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . O . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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[go]$$W Difficult
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . X O O O X X |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X O X O 1 O |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . X O X X O O X |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 0 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . d . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . |[/go]


I was also calculating this

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[go]$$W Difficult (ctd)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . X X X X O O O . . X . . X O X O O O |
$$ | . X O O O . . . X , . . X O X X O O X |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X 5 2 . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #239 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:31 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 905
Liked others: 22
Was liked: 168
Rank: panda 5 dan
IGS: kvasir
It occurred to me that you are not killing all of the white stones here
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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ . X . . X O 2 O . . |
$$ , . . . . X X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]


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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O 5 . 3 7 |
$$ . X . . X O 2 O . 4 |
$$ , . . . . X X O 1 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]


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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O 4 7 3 . |
$$ . X . . X O 2 O . 5 |
$$ , . . . . X X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]


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[go]$$Bcm4
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . 1 2 6 . |
$$ . . . . X O 3 5 O . |
$$ . X . . X O X O . 8 |
$$ , . . . . X X O O 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . X X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]


Hope this is right.


I think the right way to go about it is
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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . 2 . 4 5 . |
$$ . . . . X O . . 3 . |
$$ . X . . X O . O . 6 |
$$ , . . . . X X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]

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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O 3 . 4 . |
$$ . X . . X O . O . . |
$$ , . . . . X X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]



White's usual spiel in this shape is to go for the outside cutting points but black is very strong on the outside in this game, or create a ko shape by threatening to connect with something on the top side. At least that is what I think I learned somewhere.

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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . T . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . 1 . |
$$ . X . . X O . O . . |
$$ , . . . T X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . T X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . X . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , X . . |[/go]


This post by kvasir was liked by 2 people: dust, Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #240 Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:32 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2408
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 359
Was liked: 1019
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
A very instructive game today (regaining me my 2d rank which seems to be far from solid still)

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[go]$$B Moves 31 to 31
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . b . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O . . . O . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . a . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of solidly finishing the 3-3 invasion pattern at A, Black tries something more efficient. If Black had played A, White would probably have played elsewhere. But how about now? Should White immediately "punish" at A, or is that an overplay? Should White defend at B now that Black has played closer to this group, or would that be submissive and will Black's bad aji provide ample protection? Or should White play away, for example the invasion at C?

KataGo likes both A and B, rather than C. B is the actual move KataGo wants to play, but increasing the aji by first probing if A is sente is also possible.


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[go]$$W Moves 32 to 39
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O . . . O . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . b 7 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . a 4 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I opted for the invasion at :w1:. After :b8: we have been taught to force at A. But can White afford to play here in this case? That is, can Black play B and go for the ko?

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[go]$$W Moves 40 to 42
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O . . . O . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the ko we're talking about. As far as KataGo is concerned - and I think I remember this from pro games - White should close his eyes for any ko threat and connect:

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[go]$$W Connect
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O . . . O . . . . O X X O C |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C C . . |
$$ | . . . O C . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . C O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Whether it's the strong cut of either corner position, or killing the upper right by 2 hanes, nothing compares to connecting the ko.

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[go]$$B Moves 71 to 71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O O . . O . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O X X . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X O O X . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As an exercise White's tesuji is easy to see but I was pretty pleased to do so in the game.

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[go]$$B Moves 71 to 71
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X O |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O O O . . O . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . 1 W . O X X . . . X . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X a X O O X . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 b X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O , O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A and B are miai for capturing the cutting stones. The marked move had this follow-up in mind but the variations are far more complex if Black connects at A instead of :b1:

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