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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #21 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:04 am 
Gosei
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Analysis of a game won largely in the endgame.
Interesting byproduct of these exercises is that I'm starting to understand what Bill means with "sente gains nothing"

In the analysis some of the smaller sente are merely incidental to the flow of the game. There is a difference between the big sente moves that matter and the small sente moves that can just as well be left out for the moment or even kept as ko threats.

In general I seem to have a good feeling for the endgame but it can be improved by looking only at the moves that really matter.

Analysis starts at 138


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #22 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:58 am 
Judan

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c10??!!!!??!?!?!?

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #23 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:04 am 
Gosei
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Sorry to disappoint you. Anything you can add about the endgame is most welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #24 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:48 am 
Judan

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Sorry, I didn't see the endgame as that empty triangle was just too ugly for me to continue! ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #25 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:03 am 
Honinbo

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Go to move 210. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #26 Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:38 am 
Oza
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To my eye it just looks like White is ahead after a better middle game. However, regarding the endgame:

- At 133 does Black need to cut at L15? If Black simply played J15, would White capture that stone and allow Black to play L15 and M15 capturing the two White stones on the upper side? If not, is L15 a wasted stone for Black?

- At 135 Black can play atari at H15 instead of peeping with G15. This would capture two stones in sente (or six stones in gote). Better than the game?

- regardless of where Black plays 135, should White tenuki and play N2 on the lower side for 136, threatening to kill the Black group with M2? This looks like an effective forcing move that neutralizes Black's descent at O2 in the game.

- Instead of cutting with 137 as in the game, should Black have played the atari at :b1: below? :b7: threatens to kill with the cut at 'a' (not 100% sure of this due to all the aji with the marked White stone). If White protects the cut, play reverts to the game, without a big gote gain waiting at the top. Who ends up better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O X X X . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O 2 O O X O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . W X . . X O . O X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X 3 1 4 O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O 8 . O . O . O X X X X . |
$$ | . O X . . X O O a . . . O . O O . O . |
$$ | . O . 5 . . O X X X X X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 6 O O . . . O O . . . O , . O . |
$$ | . 7 O O X X . X X X O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X O X . X O O X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . X O . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . X . X O . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . O X . X O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O O O X X O O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . O X . X . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X X . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


- 154 is indeed small. Black should not have answered it. Instead Black should have played D5, threatening to break into White's group. No matter how White answers it seems like the monkey jump into the lower left group will become sente. Due to this aji I think Black's B2 was better than the hane (D5 should have preceded it though).

- Does 156 at B14 work? Black descends at A13 and what happens next?

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #27 Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:57 am 
Gosei
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Thank you Bill and Dave. Both your remarks point to investing more in endgame plays that have a relationship with life & death, looking at placement tesujis and others. This would further increase the benefit of L&D study and tesuji, well into the endgame.

Bill's tesujis would have been hard for me to find in a real game. Dave's N2 however should have been more obvious to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #28 Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:39 am 
Gosei
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Having played a few more games, I've experienced that having a long term plan - in my case playing thickly until the endgame and then play good endgame - helps in playing more calmly and not rushing into battles or play careless moves. In a recent game I made two mistakes (one strategical mistake, one blatant joseki mistake) but instead of trying to make up for it instantly, I applied some damage control, with the intention and confidence to make up for it in the endgame.

Eventually the first mistake resulted in a capture with bad aji and later, the aji came to life to my advantage. The second mistake was written off as a sacrifice in favor of a big centre. I won by 24,5 points. Endgame skills were not really necessary, apart from counting and making sure that I could afford answering my opponent's late desperate attempts.

In short, counting on good endgame prevents all out attacks, which are rarely necessary. Having a plan for your game improves the mindset and the results.

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #29 Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:40 am 
Gosei
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Endgame discussion of another Gu - Lee game. Starts around 150.


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #30 Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:31 am 
Gosei
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After analyzing 3 pro games, I studied the endgame of a club member's game of the same strength. Not surprisingly I was able to spot many mistakes from both players: we're always a few stones stronger when analyzing. I also misjudged a few issues. Next I wanted to see if my endgame analysis could reveal mistakes in KGS 5d play.

In this game, White starts the endgame prematurely with a monkey jump, before his chains are properly connected. He ends up in sente but with less liberties, which next allows Black to break through the lines and destroy potential territory. In the process, both Black's and White's weakest group are being dislodged and a trade takes place. So there has been a major stage of middle game fighting after the first attempts to gain endgame points. In the end Black loses 6 points in sente due to a mistake but still wins the game. In my opinion this shows that White should have continued the middle game with a thick move in the centre, which affects both groups and makes some potential territory.

Analysis starts at move 171


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #31 Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:48 pm 
Gosei
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I analyzed 6 more Gu - Lee games for the endgame and 4 other pro games. I will post the analyses here soon.

ere are my findings:


1) A player will first execute his major sente and then take the biggest gote
2) What is sente? A move which has a bigger follow-up than any move on the board.
3) when does a professional execute his sente? a bit before it becomes the biggest gote for the opponent; so in effect, the opportunity to play "reverse sente" in the sense that it prevents the opponent to execute his sente never occurs in a pro game
A reverse sente is only played if the remaining gote are equivalent
4) in particular, 1 point sente moves are played very close to the end and kept in reserve for ko fights
5) an endgame play that affects the L&D status of a group, even only in follow-up, is always a bit bigger than it seems
6) in confused areas they leave options open until they find the best move; you rarely see brutal point taking
7) endgame tesuji make a difference of various points per move
8) a large endgame move is not necessarily followed up immediately; a good example is the monkey jump
9) making miai is another common tactic: rather than executing trivial endgame, they will look for a move that makes profit in itself and creates a follow-up which leaves two such endgames as miai

6 of the 10 games I studies were between Gu Li and Lee Sedol. Nearly always when there is a small victory, it's Lee's.

Lee Sedol's endgame is a little different and harder to predict. He tends to pay even more attention to stability of groups and doesn't protect open territories if they're not critical eyespace. He is also not afraid to play ko in the endgame and will reinforce with a gote move in order to prepare for the ko.


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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #32 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:27 pm 
Gosei
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I present this game as an exercise. It starts at move 152.
I was able to correctly predict the last 40 moves (sometimes luckily so but still an achievement I was proud of).
I do question Black 169, so any comment is welcome there (all comments are welcome everywhere).
Eventually White resigns so this was not a close game but still one that I found interesting from an endgame perspective.



Last edited by Knotwilg on Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #33 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:11 pm 
Honinbo

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There seems to be something screwy with your last post. I get an unresponsive script error and the game does not display any moves. Nor can I download the SGF file. :(

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Post #34 Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:17 pm 
Gosei
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I edited it but it still behaves oddly. I think you'll be able to browse it but indeed downloading doesn't work.
I sent it to you via email.


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Post #35 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:35 am 
Lives with ko

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Knotwilg wrote:
I present this game as an exercise. It starts at move 152.
I was able to correctly predict the last 40 moves (sometimes luckily so but still an achievement I was proud of).
I do question Black 169, so any comment is welcome there (all comments are welcome everywhere).
Eventually White resigns so this was not a close game but still one that I found interesting from an endgame perspective.


Are the A, B, C, D situations all your work or did you take inspiration from a pro commentary?
Eitherway, thanks for the great yose training.

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 Post subject: Re: Knotwilg's practice
Post #36 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:34 am 
Gosei
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They're my own work. So it's to be taken with a lower dan grain of salt.

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Post #37 Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:04 am 
Gosei
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Recently I did quite some analysis of professional games. I've always been sceptical of the activity as a way to improve because it's hard to understand a pro game and if you do, the time you invested in it could have been spent more efficiently. On the other hand, analyzing pro games is intellectually stimulating in itself.

I found it very useful to analyze a pro game yourself first and then look up a professional commentary of the same game. Of course you start the other way round: pick a commented pro game and first analyze it yourself without looking at the commentary. Your own analysis will create a sort of landscape in the game: things you've analyzed and understand, moves that you don't understand, trivial moves or sequences. When looking at the commentary, you are visiting a familiar landscape again, this time with a guide who sees things you don't.

1. You analyzed something and it is confirmed by the pro: reward
2. You analyzed something and the pro doesn't mention it: possibly trivial at pro level but not for you
3. You analyzed something and it is denied by the pro: thinking to be corrected (important!)
4. You did not understand a move and it is explained by the pro: new knowledge to ingest (not as important)
5. You did not understand a move and it is not explained by the pro: apparently it is trivial for the pro and not for you; investigate
6. You did not analyze a move but the pro says something about it you didn't consider: thinking to be corrected (important!)
7. you did not analyze a move and the pro says nothing about it: possibly trivial

This kind of analysis is much richer than merely reading a pro commentary, where all that happens is scenario 6, which can hide 1 & 4. A scenario that doesn't happen is 3, while it is probably the most important one.


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Post #38 Posted: Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:29 am 
Gosei
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Another endgame analysis of a pro game. Starts at 195.


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Post #39 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:27 am 
Gosei
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Not many people take an interest in my ongoing endgame training, but anyway. Here's a blitz game where I wanted to see how well I intuitively play the endgame. I took a big advantage in the middle game and lost many points in the endgame, mostly due to poor reading (even some blindness) which caused me to play unnecessary gote and miss sente opportunities.

Any comments welcome, especially on the endgame


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Post #40 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:09 pm 
Honinbo

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Knotwilg wrote:
Not many people take an interest in my ongoing endgame training, but anyway.


I have not commented much, but I applaud your effort and endeavor. :)
:clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow: :bow: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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