mongus wrote:
What I would be worried about, if i just played along the bottom right of Blacks Moyo is that by pushing up from the bottom right it would just push Black up towards the centre. It would be helping my opponent to build a large wall facing the centre of the board :
Something like the following (slightly exaggerated) scenario could ensue :
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . # @ . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . # @ . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . # @ , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black would have a very strong influence in taking the rest of the board.
Thanks for showing your fear, it rather surprised me! If we pair off the square-marked stones, I agree that each black stone is more useful than the adjacent white stone: their value in creating influence and potential territory to the centre is more than white's territorial gain to the right. However the white stones a bit further down do secure a decent right side territory so it's not so clear whose wall there is better. So how to stop black getting those pairs of stones on the board? Don't play the white ones: stop pushing mutual walls if their wall is better than yours! Below I have tried to anticipate how such a result might arrise in a DDK game:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 6 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So let's examine these moves. This jump of black 1 is ok, growing the centre a bit and threatening to invade the right side. Invading the side directly might well be better, my feeling is it is soft but it's a fine DDK move.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next white peeps. This kind of inside for outside peep is often helping the opponent more than you, but it could be ok if the plan is to take sente afterwards (for example 4 is very big) and it means black can't invade the right side anymore: for example that peep means the kosumi of 6 works to enclose black, however perhaps it can still live inside with 7. Reading required (but my intuition says it lives).
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O 7 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
You should note the relationship between the peep stone and r11 is bad, but the peep stone is light and can be sacrificed in order to secure the side, in the result below black is short-changed:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 7 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 9 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X a O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After the peep black connected, this is fine. Next white pushed from behind as below. This is unquestionably bad.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If white is going to play locally again (I prefer tenuki), jumping ahead is better. My judgement is that these 2 stones gained more for white in securing the right side territory than black gained with the centre wall. That's why I said the initial jump looks soft. I have roughly marked the additional territory these 4 moves have gained each side. Perhaps you didn't realise the right side was not white territory yet? That is important in judging these results.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 . M M . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . M M M |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . M M 3 2 . M M M |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . M M X . O M M M |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . M M |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next black extends. This is a good move, but tenuki could also be possible (e.g. invade at
a, that's why I wanted to get sente to jmup at the top as white). Note white has a weakness at b, but it's not so bad (he could answer by falling back to
c or crawl at
d and sacrifice the 2 stones similar to sacrificing the 1 peep stone before).
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . a . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 1 . b d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . c . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As an aside we can apply a tewari argument to show why jumping as white before was better, imagine after white jumps black pushes at 5, a decent move. White would now prefer to extend at
a than retreat at
b.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 5 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next white pushes from behind again, another bad move (jump ahead to
a better), but it does at least stop that elephant eye poke from before.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next black extends again, locally a fine move but globally it could be a slow one, tenuki could well be better as white's hane there is not so painful (black's wall has many liberties).
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm7
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next white pushes from behind again, before it was bad, now it is awful as this doesn't even fix a problem in the right side territory, it just increases it by a point or two.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Black extends again, locally good and the last exchange benefited black hugely. But tenuki is also good and could be even better.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The comments for the last 2 diagrams can be repeated for these exchanges:
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So in conclusion, at the beginning of this pushing battle it was ok for white to secure the right side territory, but then the moves accomplished little and helped black, so don't play them.
P.S. I also ought to mention that in answer to black's jump, white could simply jump to defend the right territory too (and maybe think about making a-b peep first). This defends the territory without any bad aji like the peep, but is gote. And just to be clear, if black now jumps at 3 (a soft move), white would tenuki, e.g. jump to 4 which both defends the top side territory and gently walks into the centre so black won't make much there.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . a b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]