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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #21 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:00 am 
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Thank you very much for the comments skydyr, I tried to keep them in mind when I played. That being said, I think I should reread the last review I/someone else did of my game before playing another one because I forgot many things in between.

Here are 2 other games I played on KGS.

The first one was against an opponent of unknown strength. He had 4 handicap stones and I didn't know how to start but I think I did well in the beginning. I gamble that he couldn't keep his stick alive but was wrong so I was obliterated. I didn't review this game (although I know I should since obviously I have many things to learn from a lost game) but I post it anyway for completeness.



The second game was against a 13k and I won even if my moves where messy when dealing with his invasions. This time it's commented.



After this kgs puts me at "10k?" but it seems a bit high. Maybe after learning go I'll try to understand KGS ranking algorithm...


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Post #22 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:11 pm 
Oza

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In the first game, ignoring keeping the black group dead to play on the outside for a few points was the game-losing mistake. For the second:



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Post #23 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:14 pm 
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KGS: mathmo 4d
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Here is my review




You have many impressively good comments added yourself. I've tried to add mine signed DH
There are long stretches where both sides play worthless moves : moves 65 to 83, 110 to 119, (in fact 109 to 149)
, but each time, you got lucky and played the big point first. That is why you won. Also, you gained over 10 points overplaying in the endgame. You need to learn to fix your 2nd line attachments (move 108,120, 146). But each time your opponent let themselves be pushed around.

My main tips are:

1) be careful building weak walls in the centre - you may get cut to pieces, or let your opponent live easily when you have to defend (move 12,16,28, you were slightly punished around move 44, 50, as move 54 is a painful retreat)
though perhaps your opponents aren't yet strong enough to punish it
2) forget about where the last move was played, play elsewhere. you would be 5 stones stronger if you played the 30 points over the 2 point moves. Often you and your opponent were playing 1 point moves, and once you played a move worth 1/3 point (move 132)

3) move 36 was an overplay, you need to learn to value the sides and corners much more both for eyespace and territory and easier ability to kill cutting stones. (though easier ability to die). Perhaps it also showed some greed - instead just forget about those few points of B territory and play to reduce and expand your own area, or you may lose more in a counter attack

otherwise you crushed your opponent in multiple levels of the game, and demonstrated your strength, so well done!


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 Post subject: Re: Laerthd study journal
Post #24 Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:14 pm 
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In the handicap game, perhaps your opponent was quite strong, but you were very far behind even if you killed your opponent's group (by nearly 30 points)

Lots of nice ideas from you, but you showed your bad habit of playing very weak shape in the centre :w77:
Lots of fighting to comment on, and guiding proverbs too - there's lots you can learn from this game
:b18:
:w39: was extremely strange and critical mistake, looks like you didn't notice atari
:w57: see better move
:w75: see better move

sequence around w115 where you make critical mistakes in killing the B group - don't attach to weak stones



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Post #25 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:44 am 
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Thank you skydyr and dhu163 for the reviews. Especially the handicaped game since I didn't review it myself.

Today no game but instead I read the review and an older one from skydyr and I have some questions. There is actually quite a lot of questions so I apologies in advance for flooding you with them.

In the game against CoSting (the last one of page 1)

:w22: not a question but an answer. I thought I could live by using a threat on the cut. Apparently this was overly optimistic.

:b23: Should black just fix his cutting point at N16?

:w56: Why is it poor shape? And following that, how does :B63: make it a bad shape?

:b119: Also not a question but I didn't realize I was in sucha bad position. I need to start counting during the game. For now I only work by guessing and put to much emphasis on the center.

:w138: When you say not strictly necessary, do you mean white can live without it and there are bigger points on the board?

:w140: I wanted to play low to use the d4 stone, was that a bad idea?


In the game against scalsensei (no handicap)

skydyr's review

:b15: Thank you, I couldn't see that the cut was not a threat.

:b91: What should black have done? Would B17 or E18 be fine?

dhu163's review

:b13: In the variation, why is this a bad shape? (see diagram)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Why is black shape bad?
$$ ----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . O X . . . .|
$$ . . . . O . X X . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . B . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . .|[/go]



In the game against lol456 (handicaped game)

:w13: What do you mean this is a overplay? What would the normal play be?

:w77: why is it a desastrous shape?

:w113: Is it a good shape because it's a table shape?

:w115: Would just playing E6 have been fine?

Some of the numbered stones in the text don't display well, anyone know why?

Apparently I really need to pay attention to bad and good shapes so I'll focus on trying to learn that for now. As dhu163 mentionned I should also learn to stop following my opponent but I already try not to do that in my games so I can only say that I'll try harder ^^'

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Some good questions to reply to - you've improved a lot in a short space of time.

If I can presume to comment on your questions to skydyr too:
:b15: the cut is still a difficult fight. The situation is: your stones will not die. Instead you are fighting over how strong a group/wall can black build in the centre and how much territory on the sides can you claim.

:b91: this is actually a good move locally. I suspect skydyr wants B to play B17 for better endgame, but in this case, B needs to live (though I suspect with best play it is dead anyway). In addition, in this case B creates a cutting point, so if W protects with a tiger's mouth anyway, the endgame is exactly the same.

The bad habit is if you play this in general, letting your opponent block at A15 in sente often loses many points in endgame (otherwise you get to play A15 in sente yourself). Sometimes it also means your opponent can live with a dead group.

- numbers over 100 don't seem to work, e.g. :b99: :w100: :b101:

back to my bit
:b13: this was hasty on my part. The shape is actually very good. Instead, I meant that it is complicated and harder to deal with due to the cutting point (see variation 2)

:w13: I mean that you should have blocked to take away the territory, get some potential eyespace on the side, and threaten the B stone to the left. In the game, B got all the territory, and W had a very weak group.

:w77: in the game, you were punished and got cut to pieces - what should have been your territory turned into a huge black territory - the sides are often bigger than they look to you, while the centre was far too small.

:w113: it both connects your stones and seals black in

:w115: if you played F4, under best play I think B is dead, however that depends on whether you respond correctly to the very tricky cuts around L12

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Post #27 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:18 pm 
Oza

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dhu163's comments are pretty-much spot on. With :b91: admittedly, I wasn't really thinking about L&D when I made the comment, and usually it is bad endgame to play the descent as was mentioned.

As for the numbers, there are only emojis for 1-99 and 00 for each colour. After that you're on your own.

Regarding the game against CoSting, at :w22: once you cut black's corner group is basically alive already, so there's no wiggle room there. Black's center stones have good access to the center, and are not short of liberties, so there's not a lot white can do their either. That only leaves the other side, but black can play there immediately, since the cut is not a big threat.

The other issue for more general situations is that when you invade, you take away territory, but you give influence in exchange. That is, by living inside, your opponent generally gets a wall oun the outside. Influence is most valuable early in the game, since it affects empty areas and those fill up as the game goes on. Later on, it becomes less and less valuable, because the areas it can influence become smaller and smaller as each sides stones become stronger through normal play. Invasions ideally occur immediately before your opponent would want to consolidate the territory. Too early, and the resulting wall would be too valuable, or (for consolidation) making territory would be too slow. Too late, and your opponent takes it first.

As a second thing to consider, when you're invading, you generally want to have 3 good followups, so that you don't come under too much pressure. And finally, it's also worth considering whether you should invade (which often ends in gote) or reduce from the outside (often ends in sente). This ties in to counting as well, since you need to know how much you need to ruin to win.

For :b23:, I think black could just play one space farther away, instead of a contact move. I thought I put that in, but maybe not.

For :w56:, it's poor shape because black is peeping at cutting the keima, and this move lets him cut it. Without really looking back at the game to read it, the standard idea would be some sort of move that keeps black split and white connected. Cutting your opponent and staying connected yourself are very basic principles to play by. I suspect you expected your opponent to extend towards his other stone, but you always need to look for ways your opponent can fight back.

At 119, it seems obvious to me, at least, that black's lower left is going to live. You can draw a line between the outermost stones of white's formation to get an idea of the territory it encompasses, say from E8 to M9. Without actually counting, but just roughly comparing territories, this area isn't much bigger than black's upper left. However, black also has the UR corner, the LR corner, and something that looks decently sized in the lower left, plus potential to make a lot of points with a simple extension along the bottom.

For 138, this is the result of a few thoughts:
First, white's group isn't in any danger of dying or being cut, so playing here only prevents a sente peep.
Second, white's group on the other side is strong too, so if black plays on this side, white can reduce from the other side.
Third, black's group is alive and also has good access to the side.

You may have heard the proverb to play away from thickness, and there's nothing thicker than unconditionally alive. Because each side has strong reinforcements here for any fighting, it's easy for each side to prevent the other from making a lot of points. Generally, you can consider that the end result will be kind of a wash, with neither side gaining over the other much. Because of that, I feel playing in a less developed area would be a lot bigger, without actually counting it.

For 140, that's a good question. There's something to be said for using that stone's aji, since it's already dead. My concern is that black could play, say, an attachment at H4 and then in the fight kill the aji and get stronger in the center. Then after the fight is done, black can still reduce from the right, and black is strong in the center so he can reduce white's center a lot. It's also possible that black might move into the center right away, betting that he can live and hurt white more than white hurts black. That said, white's behind right now, so maybe it's better to play your way and make things more confusing for black. Also, if white plays too high, black can just make points on the bottom to counter the additional points that white is getting in the center. I guess it's really a question of 'how do I hope or think black will screw up?' given that white is pretty far behind at this point.

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Post #28 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:13 am 
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Thank you for all the clarifications both of you :)

I played some games but didn't have the time to comment them all so here are 2 of my last games commented.
The first one against a 16k on IGS, I am happy about this game and think I played well.
The second one against a 14k on KGS with 2 handicap stones for him. I lost because because of the end game. Kind of disappointed by this one but sometimes you win sometimes you lose.






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Post #29 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:06 pm 
Judan
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Hi Laerthd,

Game 1.

:b7: In your var, please see ElephantsEye.

:b9: Maybe this var:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 4 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 3 O 7 . . . . . .
$$ | . 0 2 1 . X . . O , .
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . .
$$ | 2 X X O X . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . X . . O , .
$$ | . 1 O X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b2:
$$ ------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . .
$$ | O C C O X . . . . . .
$$ | . O O X . X . . O , .
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

:w16: It's big for W to connect his weak group (you let him);
now he doesn't have a weak group any more.

:b17: F3 direction (approach) is good.

:w32: P2.

:w38: Not small, but gote. You should tenuki.

:b39: Bad habit. Forcing your opponent to make good shape, to live, (to get a good result for him) without a very good reason is bad. For one thing, you just waste at least one ko threat.

In your var, to tenuki is a good idea, but :b41: atari at M1 is bad -- just pull back at M2.

:b43: R15.

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Post #30 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:18 am 
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Hey EdLee, thanks for the tips.
I did read about the elephant eye in "L'âme du go : Les formes et leur esthétique" by Fan hui but lately I seem to make a lot of elephant eyes. I will need to be more attentive.
Can I ask you how you make your diagrams? Do you write them or is there a piece of code that translate positions to their related writing form?

Today KGS had the good idea to match me with CoSting with whom I played some times ago so here goes the revenge.



Unfortunately I lost this time. I think this is mainly because:
    I am bad at reading
    I have gaps in my concentration

The good news is that I almost completed my first goal of losing 100 games. I estimate my lost games at 97. Next goal will be to reach SDK. For this I will try to solve Cho Chikun' s encyclopedia of life and death part 1 but even though it says elementary I find them quite hard.


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Post #31 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:06 am 
Oza

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Some comments on the last game:


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Post #32 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:10 am 
Lives in sente
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Highlights

29 - don't miss chances to force your opponent into bad shape
49 - don't play elsewhere if the stability of major stones is still at stake
65, 69, 73 - contact moves are for offering an exchange, or mutual strengthening, not for attack
93: cut & connect are basics of strategy
132: an overview of the endgame
150: notice how Black lost the endgame
179: bad reading, as you say
207: loss of concentration, as you say

You made a good analysis: bad reading and lack of concentration are two of the most common reasons for losing (next to poor time management and loss of confidence).

How to train reading?

- start out by forcing yourself to read 3 moves deep, EVERY move. This is not needed in the long run, when you'll start reading longer patterns at SOME moves, but at the start this is a good habit
- practice easy reading problems in books
- ladders are good training material

How to train concentration?

- accept that blunders at the end cause losses and no brilliant move in the opening forces the win
- remind yourself to become even more concentrated towards the end. usually we exhaust ourselves in the beginning
- concentrate on number of liberties chains have; count them regularly

Full review



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Post #33 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:13 am 
Judan
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Quote:
Can I ask you how you make your diagrams?
All by hand. :blackeye:
Quote:
Cho Chikun' s encyclopedia of L&D
No doubt that's great fun for years to come;
do you already have Graded Go Problems for Beginners, vol. 1-4 ?


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Post #34 Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:18 am 
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EdLee wrote:
do you already have Graded Go Problems for Beginners, vol. 1-4 ?


I'd skip volume 1 after 15k. But yes, this.

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Post #35 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:42 pm 
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sparky314 wrote:
EdLee wrote:
do you already have Graded Go Problems for Beginners, vol. 1-4 ?


I'd skip volume 1 after 15k. But yes, this.


Yes this what?

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Post #36 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Probably Sparky seconding the recommendation to get the books.

I'll second doing Cho Chikun's Elementary to practice reading (looks like you already are) - it really gets a lot easier as you go along since your internal "pattern library" grows and you can more quickly recognise how the situations transpose into ones you already know how to solve.

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Post #37 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:05 pm 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Yes this what?

"This." in internet-speak means "I agree."

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Post #38 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Yes, seconding the recommendation for the Graded Go Problems series. :)

I'd also add 1001 L&D and Get Strong at Tesuji in between vol 3 and 4 of the Graded Go Problems.

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Post #39 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:45 am 
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Thanks for the review and training recommendation Knotwilg :)

Edlee, I don't have graded go problems so for now I'll stick with cho chikun.


Yesterday I read for the second time chapter 2 of Lessons in the fundamental of go by Toshiro Kageyama and tried to apply this my games of today. I lost one against a 5k but haven't commented on it yet so I'll post it later. The game I post here is against a 13k on KGS. I tried to maintain connections and cut his stones and I think I did well. It was really weird though because I didn't really read anything in this game but ended up ok.



I think he lost because he was overly aggressive in many cases. Many times he chose to atari instead of extending his stone. Also I think I start to grasp a bit the idea of influence. It might not be obvious to others but I feel that before I just surrounded an area and hoped for it not to be invaded while now I realize that not everything will be mine and only use the threat of a huge area to steer the game in a direction I like.

I would like to learn about territory though so I'll force myself to play 3-4 in the opening and watch territorial players.


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Post #40 Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:54 pm 
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Hi Laer,

:w10: R14.

:w14: J3.

:w18: P3, you kick B, :b19: stands up to o4, then you jump to Q6. Attack.
About your comment in the N5 var, and Lessons's advice:
to connect for the sake of connection is meaningless;
to cut for the sake of cutting is also meaningless;
the action ( or plan ) must have a bigger purpose: global purpose.
The book's suggestion is for beginners: when we have no sense of cuts and connections -- the point is for beginners to experiment
and gain experience.
These are merely training wheels.
After you've gained some experience (with cutting, connecting, etc.),
then you must ask: is the cut good for you ?
Is the connection important ? Case by case, you decide. :)

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