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 Post subject: Re: DH records
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:38 am 
Lives with ko

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Post #22 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:45 am 
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A solid game against a strong player where I was leading the whole way through (Pandanet vs Netherlands)
with leela analysis and my own detailed endgame analysis


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Post #23 Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:28 pm 
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3 solid games for my first tournament win

woohoo







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Post #24 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:39 am 
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Good games - enjoyed the fighting spirit and the candid commentary.

It's also interesting to see how useful Leela is for training and providing quick feedback on games.

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Post #25 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:19 am 
Tengen

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Now that you say I hit overtime at move 47, it really emphasises how awful my time management was...

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Post #26 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:56 am 
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pure leela analysis



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Post #27 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:48 am 
Tengen

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Btw Joanne played that same 2nd line move as Lothar against me in the last round of the Candidates but I didn't have a chance to discuss with you. I took the outside: when she cut I atarid from the outside which threatens to retakes the corner (rather than start the fight Leela nor I like) so she changed plans and gave me a ponnuki which should be fine for me (though I then played for a weird centre moyo which was awkward).

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 Post subject: Re: DH records
Post #28 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:38 am 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude: thanks, I didn't notice that variation

I was a bit surprised by such a good result of winning the candidates, as I wasn't feeling great about my go and it only got worse on the first day where I got far behind against a 1d. It was less nerves and more feeling out of practice: unsure what to expect from my opponents, unable to plan strategies, and inaccurate reading. Studying theory and watching bots is much less practice than actually playing and reviewing your own games, especially as they can make you doubt your ideas. Somehow I then gained some confidence and my game improved.

Intense tournaments are not very fun. I got a headache at the end of each day, and hence low memory and less able to be attentive at a conversation.

I've found I developed a bad habit of saying I don't like the centre or moyos, and then still playing for influence and doing ok with it. Perhaps it is that there are many facets to centre play and some I am strong at and some I am weak at, or that other players take territory more aggressively, I'm not sure. But I have better evidence now that I am relatively strong at local reading (does this probe work?, L&D) where there are not many options to read, relatively weak at centre judgement (too much to read and my judgement is insufficient), and strong at the endgame. I suspect I am relatively flexible with exchanges and sacrifice, but I have no real evidence yet.

I'll work on some reviews

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Post #29 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:49 am 
Lives with ko

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sometimes my leela analysis comments look incongruous to my other comments, but that is because I did the leela analysis after reviewing myself first







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Post #30 Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:49 am 
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Last edited by dhu163 on Thu May 04, 2017 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #31 Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:56 am 
Tengen

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About move 83 versus Charles, when I wandered over to have a look my intuition was black j10 or j9. If white tries to connect his 2 stones you can either cut or shape attack the whole thing. Maybe a bit risky if you go for the latter and don't kill. Your way of swallowing g7 did seem rather conservative, but if it's enough to win it's simpler. And yes g7 huge mistake: I was thinking you might even spend a gote for the thick f5 (and previously surprised g3 left unplayed for so long) aiming at corner shenanigans so it was a gift for him to give it to you for free.

P.S. isn't e4 tesuji instead of d6: if block then you d5 and have a double atari. Maybe not so amazing seeing as he can connect to c12 (and g4 not so good after, but I don't think it's so amazing if you don't get g3), but you see that move with this side invasion sequence.

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Post #32 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:12 am 
Lives with ko

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j9/10 looks interesting. It's the sort of move I might notice on a computer screen, but not on a real board.

added e4 commentary. I'm not sure, perhaps I could have considered it more. In the game W did get a concerning amount of territory, especially with G3, and while B was very thick, B would have to try to kill an invasion.

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Post #33 Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:12 pm 
Judan

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The top right corner in the game vs. Groenen is interesting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 Black gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O 2 1 3 X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


Black played B149 - B151 in the game, gaining 3 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O . 1 . X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


This gote by White gains 3 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White alternate gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 4 . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O . 3 2 X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


So does this gote sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White loses 1/3 pt.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . b a 2 c . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O 3 . 1 X d |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


This gote sequence loses 1/3 pt., on average, by comparison, gaining only 2 2/3 pts. instead of 3 pts. Next, a play by either player at "a" gains 2 2/3 pts.; Black can jump to "b" if she's not afraid of the throw-in ko. The 1/3 point is based upon the possibility that White gets "a", "c", and "d", which leaves a 1/3 point ko in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . c b . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . a X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


The original position is ambiguous, because Black can also play a 3 pt. sente at "a", "b", or "c". "c" could also be ambiguous, depending on White's response. :)

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Post #34 Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:19 am 
Tengen

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dhu163 wrote:
j9/10 looks interesting. It's the sort of move I might notice on a computer screen, but not on a real board.

That's one reason I like to stand up and wander around for a bird's eye view of the board (plus I'm fidgety and don't like sitting still concentrating for hours).

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Post #35 Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:27 pm 
Lives with ko

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Bill: Yes it is interesting.

You say B gains 3 points, I normally say it is worth 6 points. I suppose we mean the same thing.

I can agree that in general your 3rd diagram is marginally better for white than the 4th, but by 1/6. I think you mean that after white a, then c is worth 2 2/3, so therefore a is worth 3 points with a 2 2/3 gote follow up, and therefore is worth 4 1/3 (instead of the 5 I first wrote down). The 3rd diagram is equivalent to if W gets a and B gets c, so this is better by (3- 2 2/3)/2 = 1/6.

However my original point, backed up by feeling (no analysis) was that in the game position, sente was important, and it would be a good idea to play the tight block R18, as this leaves a big move at a. Since B is under pressure to continue at a, and then W has gained locally in sente already

I think however that it is hard to say which of the 3rd or 4th diagrams is better. The 3rd diagram R19 makes the follow up at 4 even bigger (worth 3 1/3+2 2/3=6) and B is under more pressure to play there. So B is likely to respond, and then W can tenuki instead of 5. However, it is harder for W to tenuki now as that will lose 1/3 point compared to diagram 4. I've changed my mind a few times now, and my conclusion now is that locally there is "0 points" between them, but diagram 3 leaves large follow ups, so it really depends on the rest of the board.

On the other hand the 2nd diagram simply leaves no follow up and no options, and in that sense is unconditionally worse than diagram 3. But in most cases it leads to the same result as diagram 3, so there is "0 points" between them.


In summary, diagram 2 is simple and in general won't lose you points. But depending on the remaining possible endgames, trying to take sente may be better? Endgame can be confusing.


A long time later ...:
I've just spent too long thinking about this, and couldn't see any way for a scenario where leaving behind a bigger follow up (say value A if you play next and B if they play next) is better than just taking than the average point value ( (A+B)/2) if that is an option. Perhaps that should be a theorem. If so, then you've helped me fix a hole in my intuition. And if so, my above commentary is rubbish. diagram 2 is always optimal locally.


Last edited by dhu163 on Sat May 06, 2017 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #36 Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 1:32 pm 
Lives with ko

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Uberdude wrote:
dhu163 wrote:
j9/10 looks interesting. It's the sort of move I might notice on a computer screen, but not on a real board.

That's one reason I like to stand up and wander around for a bird's eye view of the board (plus I'm fidgety and don't like sitting still concentrating for hours).



That seems a good idea. There still remains an annoying asymmetry between what I can see for my own moves and my opponent's moves. Too often I notice my weaknesses much more than my opponent's. ie. The set of moves I feel are good for my opponent are different to the set of moves I would feel are good if I were in my opponent's shoes. It's not very rational for an objective game of go.

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Post #37 Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Quote:
That seems a good idea. There still remains an annoying asymmetry between what I can see for my own moves and my opponent's moves.


People say that to me all the time. :oops: Glad to know I'm not alone in it.

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Post #38 Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 1:23 pm 
Lives with ko

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I just had a spectacular game in the BGA online league. Sacrificing 4 stones on the top left for a ko was so cool.

The comments are all from the post game review



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Post #39 Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:06 am 
Lives with ko

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various analysis ideas





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Post #40 Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:55 pm 
Judan

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Sorry for taking so long to respond. :(

dhu163 wrote:
Bill: Yes it is interesting.

You say B gains 3 points, I normally say it is worth 6 points. I suppose we mean the same thing.


Right. :)

Quote:
I can agree that in general your 3rd diagram is marginally better for white than the 4th, but by 1/6.


I’ll explain in more detail below. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


Here is the original position. Let’s evaluate it using a couple of sente sequences.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Sente sequences
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . C 6 3 7 C C |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O 4 2 1 X C |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O B O O X C |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X C C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


:b1: - :w4: is a sente sequence, and later so is :w6: - :b7:. We can count 3 points for White, the marked point plus the captured stone and eye, and 6 points for Black, all marked. The net count is 3 pts. for Black.

Next let’s look at the game result after Black’s gote.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O 2 1 3 X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O B W W X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


To evaluate this we can do sagari-sagari on the edge and let Black take the :wc: stones and White take back.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Evaluation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . C O X C C C |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O O X X X C |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . O . X C |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X C C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


White gets 3 pts., 1 for the marked point and 2 for the captured stones. Black gets 9 pts., 7 for the marked points and 2 for the captured stones. The net count is 6 pts. for Black. Black has gained 3 pts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . C C 5 1 4 C |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O C 3 2 X C |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O B O O X C |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X C C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


White can play this gote sequence. White gets 5 pts. and Black gets 5 pts., for a net count of 0. White has gained 3 pts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote (II)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O . 1 . X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


After :w1: either side can gain 1 pt. in gote, starting with a play at “a”. We can evaluate this position with sagari-sagari to get a net count of 0, the same as the previous position. Which gote is better depends upon the rest of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote (III)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O 3 . 1 X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O B O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


I evaluate the count after :w3: as 1/3 for Black. Let’s look at the follow-up plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White gote, Black gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 X . C |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O X C |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O C O O X C |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X C C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


Black has a gote follow-up with :b1:. To evaluate the resulting position, let Black play the sente sequence, :b3: - :w4:. White gets 2 points and Black gets 5, for a net result of 3 pts. for Black. :b1: gains 2 2/3 pts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote, White gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O X . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O . O O X . |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


I evaluate the count after :w1: as 2 1/3 pt. for White (-2 1/3 for Black). :w1: gains 2 2/3 pts. Let’s look at the follow-ups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White gote, White gote, Black gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . C C O X 1 C |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O O C O X C |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O C O O X C |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X C C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


After :b1: each player gets 5 pts., for a net count of 0. :b1: gains 2 1/3 pts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White gote, White gote, White gote
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . C C O B 1 . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . O O C O X 3 |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . O C O O X 8 |
$$ | X O O O . O O . . O . . . . O X X 4 C |
$$ | . X O . . O X . X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . O X X O O . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X O X . . . . O X X . . . |[/go]


To evaluate the position after :w1:, let White play :w3: - :b4: with sente. Later :b8: and the White connection at :bc: are miai. White gets 6 pts. for the 4 marked points plus 2 captured stones. Black gets 1 marked point plus 1/3 pt. for the :w3: stone in ko. The net count is -4 2/3 (for Black). :w1: gains 2 1/3 pts.

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"Drooling Banjos"

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