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 Post subject: Pekyuliar moves
Post #1 Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:09 pm 
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OGS: Wulfenia
I want to use this thread to record new things I learn, my progress and ask you for advice and reviews.

I have been playing for almost two years now and I am about 8 kyu on ogs as Wulfenia.

I would like to start by including two of my games with my own remarks and ask your advice on them.

Game 1 is a game against a 7 kyu player. I lose by 40 points without any groups dying, so this must be due to cumulative bad decisions. I have included my own review, so I would also like feedback on my review (should I ask different kind of questions, did I overlook a whole class of mistakes?).



Identified blunders:
Move 8: White invaded too early
Move 23: Too small while the bottom is still open
Around Move 35: The influence built by attacking the white group was never properly used.
Move 37: Should have been on the third line.
Move 51: Speculative invasion did not work out
Move 88: Playing a ko without gaining any profit on it
Move 89: This move didn't threaten enough and did not protect my group enough


Game 2 is a game against a 4 kyu player. I made a mistake while blocking an invasion. And I made a worse mistake that killed off a whole corner. However, I am pretty sure that the corner-killing problem was just the end-point of a mismanaged invasion that should have gone differently.



Wulfenia (8k) against Monocle (4k)
Major identified blunders of Black:
Move 33: was simply over-optimistic blocking that did not work,
Move 75: the invasion didn't turn out well, maybe I need lighter moves, larger jumps?
Move 89: I overlooked a response that killed my corner.

PS: Uploading the attachments didn't work at all even though they were clearly indicated as uploaded with size while including the links to ogs works well.
PPS: Why does ogs claim the copyright to my game and review?


Attachments:
review-191705.sgf [4.84 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times
review-191699.sgf [3.37 KiB]
Downloaded 181 times


Last edited by Gotraskhalana on Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #2 Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:02 pm 
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Could you tell me if the files work?

This is the first time I uploaded something here and my browser crashes when trying to view them. However, I could view other people's files without problem.

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Post #3 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:52 am 
Judan
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Hi,

The SGF viewer shows an empty game for both cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #4 Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:29 am 
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The following game does not really need your feedback. I want to put it here for the record, in case I later forget the difference between understanding things in principle and still messing them up during a game mostly due to time pressure, but still.

I "won" the game because my opponent resigned in annoyance after having self-atari'd seven stones during endgame despite having won anyway.

During this game, I had the initiative most of the time, chased two weak opponent groups a long way, but failed to take due profit from it and in both cases refrained from playing a killing move (as far as I can tell with hindsight).


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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #5 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:30 am 
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I want to record two pretty, pretty shapes from my games including questions about damage control.

1. A pretty endgame shape played by my opponent, but I have built it in my own games before, so I want to record it for further reference.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$.XOOO..-
$$..YO.O.-
$$.Y.YOO.-
$$....YO.-
$$...Y.XO-
$$.....B.-
$$--------[/go]



What is Black's best response to this move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX....XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X.XOO.-
$$..X......W.XO.-
$$..........X.XO-
$$............X.-
$$---------------[/go]




2. I knew that the following move looked bad, but I didn't see the refutation, so I played it anyway, and luckily, my opponent obliged and answered at a. I sacrificed the two white stones and obtained a very weak group. Could I have handled the move at a better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$...X.-
$$..XO.-
$$.XXO.-
$$..W..-
$$...a.-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.....-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.XX..-[/go]


Last edited by Gotraskhalana on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #6 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:08 am 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
I want to record two pretty, pretty shapes from my games including questions about damage control.

1. A pretty endgame shape played by my opponent, but I have built it in my own games before, so I want to record it for further reference.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$.XOOO..-
$$..YO.O.-
$$.Y.YOO.-
$$....YO.-
$$...Y.XO-
$$.....B.-
$$--------[/go]



It may be pretty, but it's pretty bad, as a rule.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$.XOOO..-
$$..YO.O.-
$$..YYOO.-
$$....YO.-
$$...Y.XO-
$$.....B.-
$$--------[/go]


This shape will usually be better. :)


Quote:
What is Black's best response to this move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX....XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X.XOO.-
$$..X......W.XO.-
$$..........X.XO-
$$............X.-
$$---------------[/go]


If you play around with this position, I think that you can answer this yourself. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #7 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:36 am 
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I have already played around, but I am not hundred percent sure that I have not overlooked something.

More specifically, is it true that playing North or East of the stone works or not?

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #8 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:01 am 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
I have already played around, but I am not hundred percent sure that I have not overlooked something.

More specifically, is it true that playing North or East of the stone works or not?


Which connection do you think is better? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #9 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:16 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$...X.-
$$..XO.-
$$.XXO.-
$$..W..-
$$...a.-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.....-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.XX..-[/go]

This is a great problem for your level. Spending some time on it will strengthen your Go, not because you will learn and remember the answer, but because you will learn how to work out the answer for yourself.

There are two aspects to this problem, shape and reading. You have correctly identified that there is a weakness in the W shape at "a". Whether this weakness is fatal or not is now purely a matter of reading -- mentally trying out variations to determine what works and what fails.

The bad news is that there is no shortcut for reading. Trying to learn and remember lots of patterns can help for some standard shapes (corner joseki, common life-and-death shapes), but more often you will encounter something new like this which you will have to solve over the board. The good news is that reading exercises like this are one of the best ways to improve your Go ability.

Try reading out this position after B invades at "a". You have already read one line -- W can block on the outside, B cuts and kills two stones, W confines B and gets sente. The next variation to read is what happens if W connects above "a". Can W kill the B invader? Can B escape?

Play out some variations on a board and see if you can work out the answer yourself. Once you have worked out some definitive sequences, see if you can visualize them from the starting position, without actually placing stones on the board.

In complicated fights like this, liberties are very important. Counting liberties can help focus and simplify your reading. For example, if W blocks on the outside and B cuts, the two B stones have three liberties, while the two cut W stones have only two liberties, so B captures first.

On the other hand, if W connects, that creates a group of four stones with five liberties. If B pushes through and cuts immediately, the cut W stones will have three liberties. How many liberties will B have? Is there any way for B to get more liberties for his invading stones before cutting? Note that if B manages to get three liberties before he cuts, each side will have three liberties, with W to play, so W will capture first.


This post by mitsun was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, dfan, Joaz Banbeck
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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #10 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:34 am 
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I think that the Eastern connection gives White only four additional forcing moves, while the Northern connection gives much more, so Black should connect East.

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #11 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:23 pm 
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If I ask here, I have *of course* first tried to answer the question myself and played around with it, otherwise, the answer would be of no use to me, but for various reasons I am not sure of my results.

I am considering posting the sequences I have found, but I would like to know in advance if there is a culture on this forum that you will not answer any questions because you think that asking questions is lazy on principle. Or did you dislike the way I asked the questions?

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #12 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:36 pm 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
If I ask here, I have *of course* first tried to answer the question myself and played around with it, otherwise, the answer would be of no use to me, but for various reasons I am not sure of my results.

I am considering posting the sequences I have found, but I would like to know in advance if there is a culture on this forum that you will not answer any questions because you think that asking questions is lazy on principle. Or did you dislike the way I asked the questions?


Well, since I am the one who said I thought that by playing around with the position, I thought that you could answer the question yourself, let me say that I do not think that you are lazy, nor is there any such culture, nor did I dislike you or your way of answering questions. I said what I did because I had confidence in you and confidence in playing around with positions. :)

BTW, I do think that there is a cultural norm of doing everything in your head, one with which I disagree. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #13 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Thanks for your response.

The next game I post here is just to remind me of things I did in move 15 (first time I messed up a corner because I tried to remember a joseki) and from move 259 to 281.



Attachments:
GoTour-Mai.sgf [6.36 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #14 Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:33 am 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
If I ask here, I have *of course* first tried to answer the question myself and played around with it, otherwise, the answer would be of no use to me, but for various reasons I am not sure of my results.

I am considering posting the sequences I have found,


Please do. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #15 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:46 am 
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Here are the sequences I found for my two previous questions and some sequences for a third situation which also relates to damage control.


1. In my previous post, I switched North and East and I also found a mistake. And this is exactly the reason why I am not sure of my results ...

Sequences for Black's response:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Northern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...7XO.O.-
$$XXOXX..6X1XOO.-
$$..X...954O2XO.-
$$......B80.X3XO-
$$............X.-
$$---------------[/go]


In the game, I had overlooked while reading ahead that White would need to come back to fix at the triangle. After this, I don't think that White has another forcing move, at least, I didn't find a way to get out / kill / seki with two moves although there are several possibilites to try. So, White gets five ko threats for the Northern connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Eastern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...3XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X2XOO.-
$$..X.....5W1XO0-
$$.......984X7XO-
$$........T.6.X.-
$$---------------[/go]


I thought that Black didn't need to respond to this because White cannot approach in the next move, but Black cannot approach, either. This gives a total of six ko threats, so Black should go for the Northern connection.


2.
Line played during the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BSacrifice
$$...X.-
$$..XO7-
$$.XXO5-
$$..W3.-
$$..216-
$$..O4.-
$$.....-
$$.....-
$$0.O..-
$$...8.-
$$.XX9.-[/go]



I still think that this is the best way to sacrifice the stones. The outcome in the game was that white tenuki'd once in the area and then fought a ko for life with a lot of local ko threats. White won the ko, but Black got a big corner for compensation and was ahead. However, they lost it later to a blunder, so White still won.


Alternative without sacrificing the two stones:

If Black pushes immediately, Black dies:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BBlack_dies
$$...X.-
$$..XO.-
$$.XXO.-
$$..W2.-
$$.431.-
$$..O5.-
$$..67.-
$$...8.-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.XX..-[/go]



So, here now two lines if Black runs, during the game I misread these and they looked worse for White.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BBlack_runs_1
$$...X.-
$$..XO.-
$$.XXO.-
$$..W2.-
$$...1.-
$$..O3.-
$$..4..-
$$.....-
$$..O..-
$$.....-
$$.XX..-[/go]


Doesn't look good for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$BBlack_runs_2
$$...X.-
$$..XO.-
$$.XXO.-
$$..W2.-
$$...1.-
$$..O4.-
$$...3.-
$$.....-
$$..O5.-
$$.....-
$$.XX..-[/go]



This gets complicated, but from the line I looke at I don't think that it is a better choice than the sacrifice.



3. New situation. During the fuseki, I ignored the following second-line play by my opponent:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$------------
$$.........
$$.....7...
$$..35.1.2.
$$.94O6....
$$......8..
$$.........
$$.........
$$.........
$$.........
$$..O......[/go]


So, later on, we had the follow-up move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.....X...
$$-..XX.X.O.
$$-.XOOO....
$$-......O..
$$-.B.......
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..O......[/go]


In the game, bad things happened, ending up like this (stopped only by my next stones waiting near the far corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-..O......
$$-.OXXXX...
$$-.OXXOX.O.
$$-XXOOO....
$$-435...O..
$$-.B1......
$$-XX2O.....
$$-.XOO.....
$$-.XXO.....
$$-.XO......
$$-.XO......
$$-.XXO.....
$$-.OO......
$$-...O.....[/go]


After the game, I concluded that is my first response move that was the problem and I should stop black from further away. After the first move, it seems to me that I could not have done much better and maybe I should have tenuki'd.

The best sequence I have found while changing the first response is:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.....X...
$$-..XX.X.O.
$$-.XOOO....
$$-..67..O..
$$-.B45.....
$$-.21......
$$-.83......
$$-.9.......
$$-..O......[/go]


4. I got to 7k ogs now (not just rank-wise, but I won against some 7k's and I had two close games against 6k's).

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #16 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:06 am 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
In my previous post, I switched North and East and I also found a mistake. And this is exactly the reason why I am not sure of my results ...


Well, you found the mistake yourself. :)

BTW, these are the sequences I thought that you had in mind. :)

Quote:
Sequences for Black's response:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Northern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...7XO.O.-
$$XXOXX..6X1XOO.-
$$..X...954O2XO.-
$$......B80.X3XO-
$$............X.-
$$---------------[/go]


In the game, I had overlooked while reading ahead that White would need to come back to fix at the triangle. After this, I don't think that White has another forcing move, at least, I didn't find a way to get out / kill / seki with two moves although there are several possibilites to try. So, White gets five ko threats for the Northern connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Eastern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...3XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X2XOO.-
$$..X.....5W1XO0-
$$.......984X7XO-
$$........T.6.X.-
$$---------------[/go]


I thought that Black didn't need to respond to this because White cannot approach in the next move, but Black cannot approach, either. This gives a total of six ko threats, so Black should go for the Northern connection.


For reference:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Eastern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...3XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X2XOO.-
$$..X.....9W1XO8-
$$........54X7XO-
$$..........6.X.-
$$---------------[/go]


:b5: is an improvement for Black, in terms of the number of threats. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Eastern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...3XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X2XOO.-
$$..X......W1XO.-
$$........4.X.XO-
$$............X.-
$$---------------[/go]


Which means that :w4: is an improvement for White. :D

Question: Is there a difference in score between the two connections?

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #17 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:35 am 
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Your Eastern connection sequence *was* the sequence I had originally in mind. However, now I thought that it didn't work, so I will check it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #18 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:04 am 
Judan

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Gotraskhalana wrote:
Your Eastern connection sequence *was* the sequence I had originally in mind. However, now I thought that it didn't work, so I will check it again.


Ah, you're right. :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Eastern_connection
$$XOO.X..X.XXXX.-
$$..OX.....XO.O.-
$$XOOX....XOOO..-
$$OOOOX...3XO.O.-
$$XXOXX...X2XOO.-
$$..X...076W1XO.-
$$......9845X.XO-
$$........B...X.-
$$---------------[/go]


:bc: = :b11:

Congratulations! :D

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Post #19 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:29 pm 
Tengen
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Gotraskhalana wrote:
... I messed up a corner because I tried to remember a joseki...

There is a proverb among go players that says "Learning joseki loses two stones strength". My personal phrasing of this is "Blindly memorizing joseki loses two stones strength".
The second - and less widely known - part of the proverb is "Understanding joseki gains four stones strength".

Sensei's library has more on this idea: http://senseis.xmp.net/?LearningJosekiL ... esStrength


With this concept in mind, let's look at the joseki that you played.

With your first move, you are saying "I want the corner, with maybe a little possibility of outside influence."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..a......
$$-..B,.....
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]
( If you wanted an ironclad grip on the corner, you would have played the 3-3 point at 'a'. )


With his reply, white says "OK, you can have the corner, I'll settle for outside influence".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..X,W....
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]


With your next move, you are telling white "No! You can't have easy outside influence. I'm going to go outside of you, and I'm also going to deprive you of eye space." This is a confrontational move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-....a.B..
$$-..X,O....
$$-.........
$$-...b.....
$$-.........[/go]
( You could have repeated your claim to corner territory with 'a', or you could have played a peaceful move like 'b', going for some territory in the corner and the possibilities of both influence and territory on the left side. Both are solid, time-tested joseki. )


White now gets into the spirit of the moment, being just as confrontational. "You wanna play tough guy? OK, if I can't have easy influence, you can't have easy territory".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..W...X..
$$-..X,O....
$$-.....a...
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]
( White could have played more peacefully at 'a', which is another joseki )


Your next move is again very confrontational. "No, you can't have influence, and you can't have my corner either. I'll cut you apart! You are going to die!!"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.aOB..X..
$$-..X,O....
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]
( A safe play at 'a' is also joseki )


White has no choice. He must cut. You both are now caught in the current of your own making.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..OX.X..
$$-..XWO....
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]



You have no choice but to extend. All of this macho posturing has resulted in a situation in which nobody can back down.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..OXB.X..
$$-..XOO....
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]


White says "You like cuts? Here, suck on this!" White needs to play this so that C18 is sente. White can't do anything less aggressive, or black gets ahead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-..OXXWX..
$$-..XOO....
$$-..a......
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]
( White can also play 'a'. FWIW, I followed Bill's advice and played around with this joseki. It turns out that he must eventually do both. Which comes first hardly matters, I think )


Again, you chose the most aggressive move. "I'm gonna kill something!"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.....a...
$$-..OXXOX..
$$-..XOOB...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]
( You could have chosen the more stable play at 'a'. )


White (to himself): "Maybe I can distract this homicidal maniac by giving him another stone to chase."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-.....W...
$$-..OXXOX..
$$-..XOOX...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]



Black(to himself): "This is getting crowded. First I must get some more room for me. Then I can resume attacking white."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-..X..O...
$$-..OXXOX..
$$-..XOOX...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]



White: "I'm not going to let you have an easy kill here either."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-..X..O...
$$-.WOXXOX..
$$-..XOOX...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]


Black: "Die, you scum, DIE!!!"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-..X..O...
$$-.OOXXOX..
$$-.BXOOX...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]



White: "You must have overdosed on your anti-psychotic meds. I'll put you out of your misery."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------
$$-.........
$$-..XW.O...
$$-.OOXXOX..
$$-.XXOOX...
$$-.........
$$-.........
$$-.........[/go]



That is what pros are thinking when they play that joseki. It is a very aggressive sequence by both sides. ( Are you aware that you were playing one of the most aggressive versions? Or do you simply play it because everyone else is playing it? )

If you take the time to understand the meaning of each move that you play, you would see that you must play D18 or E18. Black's previous move was an attempt to get more space. One of those two moves would have been the natural follow up.


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Gotraskhalana
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 Post subject: Re: Pekyuliar moves
Post #20 Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:47 pm 
Dies with sente

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
That is what pros are thinking when they play that joseki. It is a very aggressive sequence by both sides. ( Are you aware that you were playing one of the most aggressive versions? Or do you simply play it because everyone else is playing it? )

If you take the time to understand the meaning of each move that you play, you would see that you must play D18 or E18. Black's previous move was an attempt to get more space. One of the suggested moves would have been the natural follow up move.


Thanks a lot for this instructive and delightful explanation.

For further context: I played this version on purpose because I did some exercices on it on Guo Juan's website and I wanted to try it out and see what to do with it afterwards. I switched to the "kill" idea in the end because I did do actual reading in between and this is the kind of reading error I do.

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