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dutchie's journal http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=13928 |
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Author: | Tryss [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
LZ with over 50k playout consider localy : E4 : 21.3% with 40k playouts : F3 : 21.6% with 16k playouts : B3 : 20.7% with 4.7k playouts : G3 and E3 get less than 20 playouts (so, not really seriously considered), with sub 20% winrate each Other options are to tenuki, but with kinda low playouts (lower than B3). Edit : added the "best" continuation that LZ plan for each of these moves |
Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Nice to see LZ approves of my f3 in response to white b3 |
Author: | Tryss [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
It's even the only move it consider (over 65k playout for it, while the others are all under 500) |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Tryss, Thank you. Noob question: is there a significance between the 40k (E4) v. 16k (F3) playouts ? Their winrates are very close ( 21.3% & 21.6% ), but the playouts are quite different ? Is it Lizzie ? Very pretty interface. Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for , given 2-stones ? Does 's winrate start from ~0% and climb up to ~20% by ? Or is it the opposite ? 's winrate starts out higher than 20% at ( but under 50%, obviously ), and drops to ~20% by ? |
Author: | Tryss [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white . For the playouts, I'm pretty sure the difference is noise (due to the randomness of the tree exploration). I just did another run, and the results were : F3 : 21.4% winrate with 42k playouts E4 : 21.0% winrate with 33k playouts B3 : 20.5% winrate with 8k playouts So while last time LZ would have played E4, this time it would have played F3. (I spend a little more playouts here, but the result would have been the same if I stopped a little earlier : F3 took the lead early this time) And yes, this is lizzie |
Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Tryss, Thank you. |
Author: | dutchie [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves! |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
dutchie wrote: Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves! EdLee wrote: Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for , given 2-stones ? Tryss wrote: Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .
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Author: | dutchie [ Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:39 am ] | |||
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal | |||
Again it's been too long. I've played (and lost) a couple tonight. One was a fun close fight that I ended up losing by 22.5. I'll attach it in case anyone is interested and wants to open up the SGF themselves for any comments, but I reviewed it with my opponent and I'm much more curious about the second game, where I ended up with a wall across the centre and then messed up attacks (kills?) on two invading groups. I went through and added some thoughts of my own, but the opening was a little weird as well as messing up the fights in the midgame.
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Author: | EdLee [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:16 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi dutchie, human. slow. human: slow, small. ( The game was B to lose after here. ) , how about kick-pincer combo ? Does LZ like o17 area ? What does LZ think of this ? What does LZ think about @ F9 directly ? ( foundation shapes study... ) ( + ), ( + ) Foundation shapes study . Instead of these 4 moves, imagine just 1 move around o17 area. ( Variation in SGF here still not sensing global perspective. ) Recent thread about direction. note in SGF, "...make shape in the middle" -- Still missing global perspective, what mistakes led B to this position, how to handle these stones. ( + ) Hmm. Note in SGF, "No mindless atari" is good; but insufficient here. ( emphasis on mindless, not atari. ) Problem here is knowledge gaps in foundation shapes. ( + ), ( + ) See Toothpaste and fractured shapes. P16. Foundation shapes study . |
Author: | Tryss [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: slow, small. After , LZ gives white around 30% winrate( The game was B to lose after here. ) Quote: , how about kick-pincer combo ? LZ choice. Interesting note : her favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar, so I learned something new here. (but other pincers seems playable)Quote: Does LZ like o17 area ? LZ choice tooQuote: What does LZ think of this ? -11% winrate, black advantage is mostly gone (black has now 53% winrate)Quote: What does LZ think about @ L9 directly ? You mean D9? (L9 is in the middle of the board). If so, less bad, but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi( foundation shapes study... ) The elephant eye at E11 feels like a serious mistake. I mean, LZ can manage to get an ok result from it, but the knight move at E10 or the 1 space jump at E9 feels much less error prone. After 37, black winrate is down to 22%, a loss of over 40% winrate compared to the situation after |
Author: | EdLee [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:55 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Tryss, Thanks. Quote: favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar Yea, D11 quite natural. Human reasoning: D12 too close toW's iron pillar, so pull back to D11 ( but I don't know bot reasoning ). Quote: You mean D9? but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi Thanks; typo: I meant F9 knight's. D8 kosumi, thanks.Quote: [cap] at E11 feels like a serious mistake. @dutchie: LZ's 'hint' to you: what was your plan for at E11 ? You're not building a huge moyo. Just take a big point ( O17 area ) and keep the lead.Quote: After , black winrate is down to 22%, a loss of over 40% winrate compared to the situation after @dutchie, LZ's lesson for you (thanks to Tryss): how to lose the game in 8 moves...
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Author: | dutchie [ Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Thank you folks, a lot to think about. I honestly completely forgot that kick/pincer moves even existed, Direction of play and whole board thinking are so important! |
Author: | EdLee [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Tryss, |
Author: | Tryss [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Hi Tryss, |
Author: | EdLee [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:46 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Tryss, |
Author: | Tryss [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
Author: | Tryss [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: dutchie's journal |
But maybe we should move this conversation elsewhere |
Author: | EdLee [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Tryss, Bill |
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