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BlindGroup Study Journal
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=14070
Page 6 of 7

Author:  BlindGroup [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Had some time to play last night. Since I had just ranked up in KGS with the rankings change, I decided to play there.

Played someone one stone stronger and it was a close game. I made some large mistakes, but my opponent failed to capitalize. In the end, I put the nail in the coffin with a 10+ point move in the late endgame.



Main problem was poor direction of play:
Move 17: I should have settled rather than leave a weakness that my opponent could take advantage of at move 44.
Move 33+: I should have aimed to keep white's groups separate.
Move 43: I split when I should have pressed.
Move 69: I should have more aggressively threatened white's upper right group.
Move 101: This was played WAY to deep. I misread the sector line...
Move 119: I shouldn't have split. Should have attacked from the outside and forced white to connect.

On the plus side, I did manage to out-read my opponent a few times:
Move 101+: I managed to get my too deep invasion to safety.
Move 147+: I made shape by avoiding an immediate connection at E12.
Move 201: Although I stupidly played a smaller move first, this set up the game ending move 205.

Leela's persective:

Attachment:
2018-08-23 W KGS 3k H1 Leela WR.png
2018-08-23 W KGS 3k H1 Leela WR.png [ 115.26 KiB | Viewed 2000 times ]


She thought I took an early lead, but then sqandered it: first by not attacking white's upper right group properly and then by invading too deep with move 101. I then earned the lead back by outplaying my opponent in the end game. Leela pointed out that I missed some big endgame moves, but then she missed black 205 :shock:

Edit: I had mistakenly uploaded an earlier version of the game. Latest one is now provided.

Attachments:
2018-08-23 W KGS 3k H1.sgf [8.89 KiB]
Downloaded 188 times

Author:  BlindGroup [ Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Tried two new things today:
    1. At Bill's suggestion, I created a new account and tried playing on IGS at 4k. The game went quite well! I played someone at 3k+ (who seems to normally be 2k), and managed to win by 9.5.
    2. I tried reviewing with Lizzie rather than Leela. Not sure I'm strong enough to really appreciate the difference though :-)

The Game


Lizzie's Assessment
Attachment:
2018-08-24 W IGS 3k+ H2 Lizzie WR.png
2018-08-24 W IGS 3k+ H2 Lizzie WR.png [ 132.66 KiB | Viewed 1977 times ]


Review

In the review I did by myself, the only move that I could find that I didn't like was black 18. Looking up the sequence in pro-games, players in this situation seem to treat the high approach stone lightly and build influence with the group attached to the low approach stone with A.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


At the time, I was very happy with black 46, but Lizzie makes it clear that any influence I gain from the move could be quickly eliminated. Lizzie thinks I should have played to strengthen my running group. I think I can see that now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Turns out, though, that Lizzie really liked black 62.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . O . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O O . X . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . X O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . B 3 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O 1 5 O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Overall, Lizzie seems to think that I was initially ahead, but fell behind by not doing enough to defend my running group. Once that group is settled and following black 62, the game tilted back in my favor for good.

Attachments:
2018-08-24 W IGS 3k+ H2.sgf [7.2 KiB]
Downloaded 177 times

Author:  BlindGroup [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Another game at IGS 4k and another win!



Lizzie's take:

Attachment:
2018-08-25 W IGS 4k H0 Lizzie WR.png
2018-08-25 W IGS 4k H0 Lizzie WR.png [ 127.83 KiB | Viewed 1938 times ]


I misplayed the joseki in the upper left. Lizzie didn't think the initial mistakes were too bad, but move 37 really set me behind. White then misplayed in the upper right creating a weak group, and according to Lizzie, I was back on top by move 87. We then ended up in a running fight. I built a lot of territory on the right, but Lizzie points out that I needed to play more solidly to protect my running group. Most of the decline in win rate starting around move 125 were due to white having an opportunity to take advantage of my weakness. In the end, I came out a bit ahead in the fight and had what looked to me like a solid 10 point lead. My opponent then failed to make eyes when he should have been able to do so, and the kill ended the game.

Things I did well:
1. Following the mess in the upper left, I think my overally direction of play was fairly good.
2. I had some good reads: the play in the lower left corner, getting into white's territory starting with move 163, and finally, killing white's group.
3. I was rightly cautious about going for the kill of white's group. White could have lived until move 210.

Things I did poorly:
1. I had some serious shape problems. Most notable were moves 37 and 89.
2. I needed to do a better job of keeping my running group solid. White could have done very well if he had attacked it correctly.
3. My play in the upper left corner.

Attachments:
2018-08-25 W IGS 4k H0.sgf [9.45 KiB]
Downloaded 162 times

Author:  ez4u [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

BlindGroup wrote:
Another game at IGS 4k and another win!
...

Things I did well:
...
2. I had some good reads: the play in the lower left corner, getting into white's territory starting with move 163, and finally, killing white's group.
...

The lower left is dead if White cuts at D2, so better shift this to the "did poorly" list? :)

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Congratulations. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Added a few comments. :)

Second Dave.



Edit: Added some more variations.

Author:  BlindGroup [ Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

ez4u wrote:
The lower left is dead if White cuts at D2, so better shift this to the "did poorly" list? :)


Bill Spight wrote:
Second Dave.


:shock: Oy vey... Good to know. But painful to hear...

I've been meaning to spend some time with this shape, and I clearly need to do so. Bill, thanks for your extensive list of sequences. That is extremely helpful.

I think I'm starting to see the value of the third push at G2. I was aware of that move, but had gotten away with not playing it so many times that I didn't understand it's value.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:  BlindGroup [ Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Would someone have time to take a gander at this game?

So, I won 4 games of 5 on my new provisional 4k account on IGS, and they bumped me to a provisional 3k. Wasn't sure that this was going to go well, but it seemed to go quite smoothly. Looking back at it, I can identify a number of mistakes on my part, but my opponent made just a few more...

I'm particularly interested in thoughts about the play on the lower left. I feel like I dodged a major bullet when black chose the wrong direction for :b47:. :w46: was clearly a mistake. Howver, I can't figure out how to take advantage of black's weakness while not allowing him to create a wall with :b47: at B8.



Attachments:
2018-09-13 W IGS 3k H0.sgf [8.36 KiB]
Downloaded 128 times

Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

The lower left?

:w24: How about a cut at B-07? ;)

Author:  BlindGroup [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Bill Spight wrote:
The lower left?

:w24: How about a cut at B-07? ;)


I see! I think that answers my question on :w46: as well, but I don't understand the rationale.

At :w24:, I played the marked move at K4, but you think I should have played A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X Q Q . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . X Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X Q . . . . . W b c . B . O . . . |
$$ | . . X Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


At the point that black tenukied with :b23: to play the marked black stone, I knew that the best local follow-up was at A. What I couldn't figure out was the timing. I didn't play it until :w46:, and by that time, it would have been a very different game if black had chosen the outside instead of living in the corner.

My reasoning for :w24: was that (a.) the marked stones are too weak to survive without a base and (b.) the pincer that I played is both a reply to the corner approach and a very reasonable extension from the marked stones. Looking back, I think that both of these statements are correct, but what I missed is that A would also give my marked stones a base.

Having said that though, I still don't see why A is the obvious move. It seems that A and the extension being miai argues against both my move and A for :w24:. For example, I could play a tighter pincer like B or C. In fact, just falling back to D now looks most attractive to me. Following D, I'd retain sente if black decided to settle and if black opted instead to continue on the left, the pincer at b or c would work well with the marked stones. Plus, those marked stones can push upwards in sente.

What am I missing here... I'm guessing that A has value beyond providing a base for my marked stones, but I can't see it.

Author:  BlindGroup [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Bill Spight wrote:
The lower left?

:w24: How about a cut at B-07? ;)


After getting home form work, I finally had time to run the game through Lizzie. Here is what Lizzie seems to prefer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 2 X O . . . . . 5 . . . B . O . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Her second choice for :w1: is either the low one-space pincer at A or 7. However, all of these moves, including the cut at B7 and my game move, are within 2-3 percent of each other with my move being the worst.

That said, Bill, it would still be useful to know what you were thinking.

Author:  dfan [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

BlindGroup wrote:
What am I missing here... I'm guessing that A has value beyond providing a base for my marked stones, but I can't see it.

What is the sequence of moves you think would follow after a?

Author:  EdLee [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W (a), (b) miai
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Quote:
the marked stones are too weak to survive without a base
:scratch:

Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Thanks for showing Leela Zero's ideas. :)

What was I thinking?

For starters, here is a joseki that is still around, but not the most popular.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Joseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Joseki (continued)
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The joseki goes up to :w12:, and usually continues with :b13: and :w14: now or later, because of the aji for Black.

Compare that with this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Other
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:b2: follows the proverb to capture the cutting stone. (Not that the bots or humans always follow it. ;)) Compared with the joseki, Black may be a little better, because the Black stones are one line closer to the Black top left corner, but White is a good bit better, with a bigger corner, a bigger wall, and no Black aji. So I figured Black would not like that. (In the variation you show White also threatens to take the corner and Black resists.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Other
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think that Wa is sente later, threatening a ko in the corner, starting with "b" if Black does not reply. I like the wraparound wall. :) Note that in this variation White keeps sente.

Author:  dfan [ Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

It is probably also worth considering the cut inside, in order to take the outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . .
$$ | . 3 X . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | 4 1 X O . .
$$ | . 2 X O . .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . a O . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ +------------[/go]

I feel like whenever I see this sort of problem, the official solution (as determined by pros or their ghostwriters) is to cut inside and take the outside, rather than vice versa, but I'm not strong enough to be confident that it is really best. :) I am starting to develop an appreciation for this sort of ridiculous thickness, though. One extra thing it has going for it in this particular situation is that Black needs to play at a immediately just to live.

Anyway, all of this helps explain why in practice Black generally responds to the hane with a immediately.

Author:  BlindGroup [ Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

dfan wrote:
It is probably also worth considering the cut inside, in order to take the outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . .
$$ | . 3 X . . .
$$ | . X O O . .
$$ | 4 1 X O . .
$$ | . 2 X O . .
$$ | . . X O . .
$$ | . a O . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ +------------[/go]

I feel like whenever I see this sort of problem, the official solution (as determined by pros or their ghostwriters) is to cut inside and take the outside, rather than vice versa, but I'm not strong enough to be confident that it is really best. :) I am starting to develop an appreciation for this sort of ridiculous thickness, though. One extra thing it has going for it in this particular situation is that Black needs to play at a immediately just to live.

Anyway, all of this helps explain why in practice Black generally responds to the hane with a immediately.


I agree. This was probably the way to go in terms of joseki moves. I can't really articulate why, but for some reason, I can't help but feel that black is a step ahead of where she should be in this position from Bill's post:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Other
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


That said, thank you all for the comments!

Author:  Gomoto [ Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

BlindGroup your comment about :w34: is not correct, it is a good move. (The problem starts with :w36:). :w34: extending at S3 would be a loosing move after black ataris at Q5.

Author:  EdLee [ Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:11 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto,
Quote:
... :w34: ... is a good move. The problem starts with :w36:
Thanks. Does the engine like just connect P4 for :w36: ?

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

Quote:
Thanks. Does the engine like just connect P4 for :w36: ?


It likes two times atari after crosscut :lol:

Attachment:
bg.jpg
bg.jpg [ 175.99 KiB | Viewed 1400 times ]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O X . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . O X . . O O X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  EdLee [ Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:38 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Gomoto,
Quote:
It likes two times atari after crosscut
Thanks. Does the engine like this human sequence ?
( no whole board situation, sorry :-? )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ . . . 4 X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: BlindGroup Study Journal

@EdLee: It does approve this variation.

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