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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #61 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:03 pm 
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By the way, on a similar note your 1 and 3 in the attempt to reduce white remove a weak point before the invasion. What was your reason for playing those moves first?

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #62 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:26 pm 
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jeromie wrote:
By the way, on a similar note your 1 and 3 in the attempt to reduce white remove a weak point before the invasion. What was your reason for playing those moves first?


Honestly, I'm not at all sure what to do there. I have a sizable lead in secure territory. So, I did not want to play anything too risky, but I have the intuition that it should be possible to do more than just reduce white. Looking at my moves, I'm not sure they are necessarily great ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #63 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:39 pm 
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My intuition would be to try something like J15 if you want to attack that area. I played around with it a little bit and think black will be able to escape either to the left or below. Whether that's worth trying when you've got a territorial lead would depend on a more exact count, which I'm too lazy to do right now. ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . O . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . X X X . X . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . . . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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Post #64 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:45 pm 
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Hi BG,
Also...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . 3 . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . 3 . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #65 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . 8 7 5 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . 1 9 6 X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . X 2 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #66 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:02 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
Now, as you say, I've got 12 stones generating 4 points of secure territory. That's a third of a point of secure territory per stone locally -- not good.

Not that this necessarily changes any conclusions, but if we're looking at efficiency in move-playing, you should really count this as 9 stones, since White "wasted" three moves giving you prisoners so you effectively got three of your moves for free.


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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #67 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:46 am 
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You cannot let white take those 2 stones. The difference in center control is beyond counting, I value it at more than 30 points. If you don't see this intuitively then change your intuition until you do.


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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #68 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:52 am 
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Shaddy wrote:
You cannot let white take those 2 stones. The difference in center control is beyond counting, I value it at more than 30 points. If you don't see this intuitively then change your intuition until you do.


This is very helpful feed back. Thank you. I confess that I don't see it, but at least I know what to look for! I suspect that this is related to a more general issue of me not quite understanding how to use central influence optimally.

Also, thank you to everyone else who has posted a response. This discussion has been very helpful!

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #69 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:15 am 
Judan

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Like Shaddy said, you can't just give up those 2 stones. Beginners (and indeed non-beginners) can often make the mistake of saving unimportant stones, but it seems like BlindGroup went too far in the other direction and forgot that they are cutting stones. You don't need to think about influence, it's basic stuff of not letting your opponent capture your stones. So letting white capture those stone is a bad idea, but not so awful it makes me want to stab my eyes with a fork. That accolade however does belong to :b2: below. This is an awful move that helps white capture the 2 stones, but does very little for black, except make an empty triangle and likely cause shortage of liberty problems in the future around the cut at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q Q X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Y O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . a X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If you are going to go crazy and let white capture the 2 stones, at least tenuki to whatever other big point you like rather than help him to do so. Seeing as you could then save the 2 stones, white may well extend at :w3: anyway, it's a decent move. Now I pose a new problem, black to play. I don't think anyone, not even a 30 kyu, would suggest a now! But that's exactly what you did play, but in a different order. Hopefully b looks nicer from a shape perspective if you want to play a local move and stop white cutting off the 4 stones. However, now that they are not cutting stones they are small (unlike the 2 stones before!) so even better is to not worry about saving them until late endgame and play some big move somewhere else.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q Q X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Y O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . a X O . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . b . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


P.S. because of the squeeze if black answers cut with atari I would think about about jump or empty triangle.

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #70 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:57 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Like Shaddy said, you can't just give up those 2 stones. Beginners (and indeed non-beginners) can often make the mistake of saving unimportant stones, but it seems like BlindGroup went too far in the other direction and forgot that they are cutting stones. You don't need to think about influence, it's basic stuff of not letting your opponent capture your stones. So letting white capture those stone is a bad idea, but not so awful it makes me want to stab my eyes with a fork. That accolade however does belong to :b2: below. This is an awful move that helps white capture the 2 stones, but does very little for black, except make an empty triangle and likely cause shortage of liberty problems in the future around the cut at a.


I concede (and thought I had) that my initial response to Ed's question was quite bad. Not self-mutilating bad, but perhaps deserving of self-flagellation? Anyway, sorry for any pain I may have caused! :oops:

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Post #71 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:52 am 
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Persevering through the embarrassment of my eye-forking move above, I played a game today that surprised me. Something happened a week or so ago, and it feels like many of the pieces that I've been working on (using influence, shape, timing invasions, etc.) finally fell into place. At the time, I was just south of 5k on KGS, leveled-up, and now I'm even solidly beating many of my higher ranked opponents. Today, I beat a 3k without handicap stones! This is the strongest player I have ever beaten without handicap stones. We did play without komi, but the margin of victory was 31.5 points -- and nothing died!

Thoughts would be appreciated. I went back through the game and found a few mistakes, but on the whole, I was happy with my moves, especially move 101. I'm sure, however, there were a number of mistakes that I can't see right now. :D



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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #72 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:27 am 
Honinbo

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Congratulations! :clap: :clap: :clap:

A few top of the head comments.

:b25: The keima at P-07 enlarges the Black framework and reduces the White framework. It is also sente or close to it. Without this play, White Q-06 is big.

:b27: How about the solid hane, O-04? C gets into a pushing fight that favors White, I think, because White’s wall is not so close to his stones on the right side, while Black’s wall looks a bit over concentrated.

:b29: Now P-06 looks good, with the support of the O-05 stone.

:w36: F-16 looks pretty good.

:b61: D-07, to reduce the left side, looks good.

:b83: Good.

Main focus: The boundary of opposing frameworks is big.

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #73 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:43 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Congratulations! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Main focus: The boundary of opposing frameworks is big.


Thanks, Bill! I see what you mean about playing at the intersection of two frameworks. I'll have to pay attention to that moving forward.

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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #74 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:58 pm 
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I've decided to try to play just a handful of games each week and to review them carefully. Not sure it will last, but here is my effort from today. I thought the game went quite well, although it seemed a bit odd. My opponent seemed obsessed with taking territory on the side (quite a bit on the second line). I decided to let him and managed to convert the influence into a large moyo. My main focus in the middle game was to play thickly, and it seemed to work. My opponent, at least, failed to find any defects in my wall ;-) Although I did miss an important move at J13, and my opponent beat me to it...



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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #75 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:23 am 
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Winning by 37,5 must have been a sign to you that you played more powerful go than your opponent. In particular the formation of a moyo in the upper right and turning it into territory was the key to an easy victory. As such we can probably make two recommendations for the players in this game: 1) if anyone needs to take handicap, it's your opponent 2) even so, the opponent should have tried harder to win. At no point I saw an attempt to make a comeback from the initial 2 stones, on the contrary the gap kept on widening.

That being said, there are moves worthy of comments for better or worse:

12 & 28: your influence is not worth his territory, locally. However, combining both with the 2 handicap stones, you develop a formidable sphere of influence

68: the double hane concludes an almost flawless game of attacking and moyo building

82: a beautiful move, completely in line with the game you have been playing; this and 68 make me cry with joy

88: it takes 44 moves before I see the first bad one

95; White spoils his chance to surround your weakest group and do something about the game

100: ugly, simply connecting out will do fine

116: if you read out the bottom connectivity, then that's impressive, but even so coming back to fix this weakness is probably the biggest move on the board.

122: the weakest group being alive, game is over



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Post #76 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:50 am 
Judan

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A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves. Though if you did that you wouldn't give white the opportunity to "punish" your mistake, but too early, at p2 :).

26 can attach at c17 first and then your pressing sequence is better when d16 is atari (though W may resist).

Also a comment on 68 double hane: in the abstract it is the instinct of a strong player to double hane here rather than play the crude atari so beloved by kyu players at s12, so well done on that. However, in this situation s12 is actually better. Why? Because if you double hane white should atari and capture it at s14. You can then take the 2 stones but it's gote and white jumps to the 3-3 and scoops out a fair sized chunk of your moyo. Because the white group at bottom right is super alive the 2 stones are fairly small. Normally cut first is bad because it gives white more eyes (not important here, super alive already) and loses a little in endgame (true here) but prevent white going for the trade of breaking the upper right is much more important.


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Post #77 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:12 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
Winning by 37,5 must have been a sign to you that you played more powerful go than your opponent. In particular the formation of a moyo in the upper right and turning it into territory was the key to an easy victory. As such we can probably make two recommendations for the players in this game: 1) if anyone needs to take handicap, it's your opponent 2) even so, the opponent should have tried harder to win. At no point I saw an attempt to make a comeback from the initial 2 stones, on the contrary the gap kept on widening.


That must just be IGS ranking weirdness. I was also a bit surprised by the passive play. But oddly enough, if you look at this player's "average" rank over the last year, they probably should have given me 3 stones...

Knotwilg wrote:
116: if you read out the bottom connectivity, then that's impressive, but even so coming back to fix this weakness is probably the biggest move on the board.


I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bottom connectivity. So, I'm going to say "no" I didn't read that out. :shock: I was trying to head off white R14. Did I miss something?

And thanks for the comments. It's great to know that my intuitions regarding the value of the influence in the fuseki (with the handicap stones) were correct. I am slowly getting this influence thing...

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Post #78 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:17 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves. Though if you did that you wouldn't give white the opportunity to "punish" your mistake, but too early, at p2 :).


Thanks for the comments. The last two made sense to me, but here I don't quite understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.


Last edited by BlindGroup on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #79 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:21 am 
Judan

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BlindGroup wrote:
but here I don't quite quit understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.

Move 18 should be r2 instead of p4, it's extending from r3.


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 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #80 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:45 am 
Honinbo

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BlindGroup wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
A relatively minor at this level, but commonly applicable and important principle: black 18 should extend so you can get p2 sente too, a classic example of adding a stone before sacrificing it to get more forcing moves.


Thanks for the comments. The last two made sense to me, but here I don't quite understand what you mean by "extend". What would black play at 18 to do that? I suspect that I just don't completely understand the term.


Extend is ambiguous in English, referring to two different kinds of play. :) In this case Uberdude could have said, descend, which is more specific.

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