It is currently Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:05 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 126 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #81 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:35 am 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 1178
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 165
Was liked: 488
Rank: Bel 2d KGS 3d TG 4d
KGS: Artevelde
Tygem: Knotwilg
BlindGroup wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:
116: if you read out the bottom connectivity, then that's impressive, but even so coming back to fix this weakness is probably the biggest move on the board.


I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the bottom connectivity. So, I'm going to say "no" I didn't read that out. :shock: I was trying to head off white R14. Did I miss something?


What I meant:

After White 115 many players including me would instinctively answer with the good shape connection at O5. When you didn't play there but took the important connection at the upper right, which you so bravely left after the double hane at 68, I promptly checked the cuts at P4 and P6. Both can still be answered by the stylish O5. If White plays O5 himself, then Black can play the ugly (?) double connection at P5. Next the White snake can push and poke but to no avail. I found that quite impressive reading and decision making.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: BlindGroup
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #82 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:03 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Odd game. The first joseki went sideways, and I struggled to keep my opponent from getting more than she should have. Ended up sacrificing stones in the fuseki and early middle game for influence, and it worked. I even managed to hold my own in an important fight.




Edit: Posted the correct game record.


Attachments:
2018-08-18b W IGS 7k+.sgf [5.74 KiB]
Downloaded 124 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #83 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:08 am 
Judan

Posts: 5631
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 315
Was liked: 2980
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Move 11 you say "BG: My opponents last move was *I think* not joseki. Wasn't entirely sure what to do here, but this seems right." White's vut 2 moves ago was not joseki. Did you think about capturing the stone?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #84 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:06 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
I decided to run this through Leela and got the following win probability graph:

Attachment:
2018-08-18b W IGS 7k+ Leela WR.png
2018-08-18b W IGS 7k+ Leela WR.png [ 107.44 KiB | Viewed 1847 times ]



Seems like there are three places where Leela thinks I made mistakes before I came back with the kill:

1. Moves 45-51: I was playing in the right area, but just not quite the right moves. I still had a chance to keep white from connecting at move 45 with a sequence that I think I could have seen. Starting with move 47, Leela agrees that I need to make shape to save the group, but not surprisingly, I wasn't able to do it quite the way she would have done ;-) At my skill level, I'll focus on the fact that I had the right idea and consider that a win.

2. Move 61: This is something I should have seen. I undervalued the importance of keeping white separated. Leela prefers A. I considered it, but I didn't evaluate it properly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X a O X O . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . B , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


3. Moves 83-91. At 83, I have the right direction of play, but Leela feels like my move should have been in a slightly different place. The real mistake was 85-91. I realized this was a mistake in my review, but Leela saw ways to keep white separated even at move 91. I think these moves are within my reach and I should have thought of them.

My move 91:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O O O X X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X O X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X X X . B . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Leela prefers the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cB
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O X O . O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . O O O X X X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X O X 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X X X 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O O O 3 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . 1 O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . X X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O X X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #85 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:21 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Uberdude wrote:
Move 11 you say "BG: My opponents last move was *I think* not joseki. Wasn't entirely sure what to do here, but this seems right." White's vut 2 moves ago was not joseki.


I looked it up, and yes, :w8: is considered a trick move. I guess I just remembered seeing this before and thought it was joseki.

Uberdude wrote:
Did you think about capturing the stone?


I agree. I considered it at the time, but I had trouble reading out the possible sequences. FWIW, Leela prefers your move, but mine was her second choice. The difference in win probability, however, is a meager 0.08pp.

Now that I've looked at it, I probably would have captured. It's a sharper move that seems to offer more opportunities for my opponent to make a mistake. Mine while officially not as bad, does not offer the same opportunities for my opponents who never play as perfectly as Leela expects. :D

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #86 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:55 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
An impressive game. :clap: It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will. :D

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.


_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #87 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:22 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
An impressive game. :clap: It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will. :D

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.


Bill, thanks as always for your comments (and the encouragement!).

Question on the review motivating move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I agree with your comment that this both starts a base for my stones and prevents white from getting one. That was the original motivation. So, that's good. Did you mean to suggest though that my original move is better than A? After the game it seemed like surrounding white and forcing him to live in the corner might be better.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #88 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:11 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
An impressive game. :clap: It shows a good feel for the game. You need to learn some tactical finesse, but you will. :D

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.


Bill, thanks as always for your comments (and the encouragement!).

Question on the review motivating move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I agree with your comment that this both starts a base for my stones and prevents white from getting one. That was the original motivation. So, that's good. Did you mean to suggest though that my original move is better than A? After the game it seemed like surrounding white and forcing him to live in the corner might be better.


I think it is better than "a", for two reasons. First, suppose that Black plays at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , 5 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This diagram may not represent actual play, take it as a rough indication. After :b1: White will live in the corner, making a fair sized territory, but taking gote, OC. Next, Black will make a nice moyo on the bottom side, and then White will take the last big place on the right side. (The top is big, but second tier.) Black is still ahead, thanks to White's earlier mistakes. But with :b5: Black has pretty well shot his wad.

It is not just that your play makes a base for your stones while preventing two eyes in the corner for White, it is that you get a sustained attack. In that attack you should be able to solidify several points on the bottom side and keep sente to take the last big place on the right side.

That's my judgement. OC, I haven't played millions of games. What does Leela think?

Edit: Also consider this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Bad shape
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


After :b1: in the game, :w4: was forced to make bad shape. That's a clue that this sequence is not good for White.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #89 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:59 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
That's my judgement. OC, I haven't played millions of games. What does Leela think?


Leela did not like my move. Here are her moves in order of preference:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c b . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



The aim with all of these moves is to seal white in. Leela seems them as effectively equivalent in terms of winrate and thinks they are 7.2pp better than my move. The intent of B-D seem clear, but even for A, Leela predicts the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cB
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . 9 7 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O X . 6 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by BlindGroup was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #90 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:21 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
Thanks. :)

What sequence does Leela project after our play?

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #91 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:41 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
What sequence does Leela project after our play?


Surprisingly, she expects the exact moves from the game up until :b37: where she stops her analysis. I guess she disagrees with the idea that the running group is more valuable than the influence from surrounding white. And given that Leela seems to be less enamoured of influence than humans are, that seems surprising. Go figure!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #92 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:47 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
What sequence does Leela project after our play?


Surprisingly, she expects the exact moves from the game up until :b37: where she stops her analysis. I guess she disagrees with the idea that the running group is more valuable than the influence from surrounding white. And given that Leela seems to be less enamoured of influence than humans are, that seems surprising. Go figure!


Verrrrrry interesting. :) Live and learn. :)

I would have thought that a one eyed group running out while the opponent made territory was pretty bad, especially with bad shape to boot. And I like influence. ;)

BTW, the idea that today's top bots like influence less than today's humans does not fit my observations. Just the opposite, IMO. They do challenge my ideas about thickness and influence, however. But that's not the same thing.

Example: The early 3-3 invasions of the 4-4. At first, that seems to say that the bots like territory more than influence, since those invasions had a bad name. But the now old joseki had the invader make a hane-and-connect on the second line to live in sente. In that same position today's bots don't do that, except perhaps in some special cases. Instead, they crawl once more on the second line. Doing so does not give up as much influence as the recently obsolete joseki.

I think that humans have a lot to learn about influence from today's bots, and the bots to come. :)

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #93 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:38 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
Verrrrrry interesting. :) Live and learn. :)

I would have thought that a one eyed group running out while the opponent made territory was pretty bad, especially with bad shape to boot. And I like influence. ;)


I feel like this highlights the major weakness of AI -- We know it disagrees with us. We suspect that in this particularly situation Leela is more likely to be right that we are. But we have no idea *why* she likes this move. Is there a general principle involved? Does is critically depend on the details of the board situation? It's really hard to tell.

I have a lot of time for go this weekend, and I spent some more time on this. My best guess is that she sees the surrounded corner group as being less valuable than you do. Comparing the size of the corner group to the one in your sequence, D results in a larger group, C results in a similarly sized group, B results in a smaller group, and in A, white abandons the corner. Oddly though, D is only considered to be slightly worse than A (62.66pp vs 63.60).

Color me confused! But I'm going to declare this assessment to be over my head given my current skill set and move on... I trust both your and Leela's judgement over my own. So, when you all disagree, I'm at a loss :-?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #94 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:01 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Not posting this to request comments on the entire game. (I'm trying to post as a commitment strategy to get me back into the habit of carefully reviewing my games.) But I do have one question below about a move that Leela does not like, but that seemed good to me.

Game:


Leela's winrate estimates:
Attachment:
2018-08-19b W IGS 6k Leela WR.png
2018-08-19b W IGS 6k Leela WR.png [ 95.55 KiB | Viewed 1739 times ]


There are two major areas where Leela felt I messed up:

1. Moves 13-14. Leela did not like the way I handled the non-joseki :w11:. However, her preferred sequence is well beyond my reading abilities. So, I'm not going to worry about this right now.

2. Moves 85-111. My opponent and I both missed a weakness in my wall that was quite valuable and could have equalized the game. I think that this was in our skill set, and we should have seen it.

Questionable move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . 6 B . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . O , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I played the cap, and then the game proceeded as shown. Leela seems to prefer A (6 percent winrate difference). Interestingly, she predicted the same moves that were played in the game, except she would have played 6 and 8. And after A, she expects white to tenuki. Anyone see why A might be better?


Attachments:
2018-08-19b W IGS 6k.sgf [9.32 KiB]
Downloaded 104 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #95 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:40 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
If someone had time, I would appreciate thoughts on this one from yesterday.

My opponent staked out a seemingly reasonable but wide and thin positions in the fuseki. I decided to take a much more aggressive approach than normal in the early middle game and not surprisingly, fighting ensued. On the whole, I was very happy with my play. However, Leela was not very helpful because with the fighting she kept reading out sequences and expecting sequences that were beyond our level. But I think she generally agreed with my direction of play. The winrate is in black's favor almost the entire game. This is my third comfortable win against opponents who are usually ranked much higher than I am. I'm starting to wonder if I might be leveling up. We'll see...

Leela Winrate:
Attachment:
2018-08-19c W IGS 7k+ Leela WR.png
2018-08-19c W IGS 7k+ Leela WR.png [ 109.76 KiB | Viewed 1732 times ]


Game:


Attachments:
2018-08-19c W IGS 7k+.sgf [7.83 KiB]
Downloaded 90 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #96 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:20 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 74
Location: France
Liked others: 10
Was liked: 13
Rank: FFG 1d
BlindGroup wrote:
Not posting this to request comments on the entire game. (I'm trying to post as a commitment strategy to get me back into the habit of carefully reviewing my games.) But I do have one question below about a move that Leela does not like, but that seemed good to me.

Game:


Leela's winrate estimates:
Attachment:
2018-08-19b W IGS 6k Leela WR.png


There are two major areas where Leela felt I messed up:

1. Moves 13-14. Leela did not like the way I handled the non-joseki :w11:. However, her preferred sequence is well beyond my reading abilities. So, I'm not going to worry about this right now.

2. Moves 85-111. My opponent and I both missed a weakness in my wall that was quite valuable and could have equalized the game. I think that this was in our skill set, and we should have seen it.

Questionable move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 7 5 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . 6 B . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . O , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . O . X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I played the cap, and then the game proceeded as shown. Leela seems to prefer A (6 percent winrate difference). Interestingly, she predicted the same moves that were played in the game, except she would have played 6 and 8. And after A, she expects white to tenuki. Anyone see why A might be better?


"A" helps to develop the top side while keeping pressure on both white groups. Your marked move pressures one of the white groups but how is it exactly helping you make points is not that clear. It ends up on a neutral point. It doesn't threaten another group/start a double attack.


This post by explo was liked by: BlindGroup
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #97 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:36 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
A few comments, addressing a couple of questions.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.

Actually, in this game it may have been more like, keep your opponent weak. You let your opponent strengthen himself in some instances.



Edit: I forgot to say, see variation at :b59:.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #98 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:59 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
BlindGroup wrote:
My opponent staked out a seemingly reasonable but wide and thin positions in the fuseki. I decided to take a much more aggressive approach than normal in the early middle game and not surprisingly, fighting ensued. On the whole, I was very happy with my play. However, Leela was not very helpful because with the fighting she kept reading out sequences and expecting sequences that were beyond our level.


Oh, darn! ;)

Quote:
This is my third comfortable win against opponents who are usually ranked much higher than I am. I'm starting to wonder if I might be leveling up. We'll see...


I don't know how responsive IGS's rating system is now. It used to be horrible in that regard. Still, it may be time to open a new account at 4 kyu and see how it goes. :)

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #99 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:08 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 363
Liked others: 265
Was liked: 53
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
A few comments, addressing a couple of questions.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.


Thanks, Bill! Those comments on the fuseki moves in the upper left were especially helpful.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Post #100 Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:57 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8110
Liked others: 2303
Was liked: 2841
BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
A few comments, addressing a couple of questions.

Main focus: Avoid strengthening your opponent.


Thanks, Bill! Those comments on the fuseki moves in the upper left were especially helpful.


De nada. :)

I also edited the post just now.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 126 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group