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 Post subject: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #1 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm 
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One should never ignore the 3-3 invasion. A lesson even for IGS 3D+ players:

In this game I got lucky because my opponent had a bad start. I managed to keep my lead till the end. The decision to sacrifice in the center was slack when there was instead a nice tactical possibility available. But the big mistake at move 6 by my 3 dan opponent was enough to secure the win for black. I think I did well in this game.

(Move 139 was a misclick by me, but my opponent politly did not exploit my error. Would not have been decisive for the game.)


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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #2 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Dont do this! Very big mistake ignoring 3-3.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #3 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X a . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The double hane is huge for black (a is also possible for black).

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #4 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the lower left corner this is good enough for black.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #5 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Posts: 1121
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I am always happy when my opponents are playing the high answer to the 4-4 low approach . I just go on autopilot if they do and answer with this modern joseki. The low answer is much better for white, but many of my opponents answer still high.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . X . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #6 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , O X X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not the biggest move for black, but I am ahead and I like safety first. No need to press too hard.


Last edited by Gomoto on Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #7 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Posts: 1121
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . X . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B X O . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , O X X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just a is better.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #8 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:04 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . X X O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O X X O . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . O O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . O O O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X O X X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X . O X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O X O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , O X X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here I went for the sacrifice, big enough to win.
But there would have been a nice tactical variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . X X O O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O X X O . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . O X O O . O O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . O . . O O O X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . B X O X X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X . O X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . O O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O X O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , O X X X O , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I did not spot this possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #9 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:37 am 
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Isn't move 8 a bigger "mistake" than not answering the 3-3? I'd play it at E4, so to avoid the principle of hane at the head of 2 stones. Seeing these are 2 dan players, I'm probably in the wrong, so hopefully someone can explain me why :)


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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #10 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:18 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Isn't move 8 a bigger "mistake" than not answering the 3-3? I'd play it at E4, so to avoid the principle of hane at the head of 2 stones.


LZ157 with 2000 visits says that ignoring the 3-3 invasion is a 2.9% mistake, and move 8 is a 6.4% mistake, so you are probably right.

Ignoring the 3-3 invasion is equivalent to approaching a 3-3 with a 4-4. LZ and josekipedia agree that :white: should respond to :b7: with E4 or F4.


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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #11 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:28 pm 
Tengen
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Gomoto wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the lower left corner this is good enough for black.


Did you consider a pincer?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . B . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this feels better to me.


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: Gomoto
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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #12 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:44 pm 
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The pincer is probably a slightly better move and I definitly consider to pincer in this and similar positions. But I have a strong personal bias not to pincer if possible. And in this case I think it is still a quite reasonable alternative to not pincer. I am also quite fond of the kosumi if I think it is adequate.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #13 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:54 pm 
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Ian, yes you are correct move 8 is probably an even bigger mistake than 6.

But I am an ELF fanboy and ELF dislikes move 6 much more than LZ. I just like ELFs style and feel confident in the same fusekis that are preferred by ELF even if LZ does not see an advantage for one player. (ELFs opinion is much more pronounced than LZ in this fuseki: move 6 looses 15% and move 8 17%)

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #14 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:03 pm 
Judan

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I don't like your press following white's 3-space extension. It would make more sense if white did the 2-space bots love, but with 3-space looks like a thank you move as invading in the middle could be fun now or in the future, and the outside wall is not clearly valuable.


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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #15 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Uberdude thanks for your advice, much appreciated.

I dont think it looses too much and is my kind of saftey first move. (Why fight if I have the advantage. Some call it dull but it works sometimes ;-))

(The mentioned move:)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . . . B . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #16 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Park Jiyeon, 4p - Cho Hyeyeon, 9p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
3rd Korean Women's League, round 14, 2017-05-04

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
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$$ | X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O X X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | X X O O X O . . . , . . . B . , X . . |
$$ | . X X X X O . . O . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #17 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Yamashita Keigo 9p - Cho Chikun 9p, B+6.5 (Komi 6.5)
54th Japanese NHK Cup, round 3, 2006-12-03


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . O . . . X O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . B . . . , . O . . O , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #18 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:57 pm 
Judan

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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
In those pro games the extension stone is strong due to white positions just beyond it (so invading would not be attacking it) wheras in your game it has no support and just that looming black position beyond.


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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #19 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Yes, you are right, that is a difference.

Let us have a look at some variations with ELF next:

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #20 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:25 pm 
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ELF prefers tenuki over a local play, but not by much:

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