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 Post subject: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #1 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:57 am 
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To keep track of our progress, I will post games, study plans, and interesting puzzles we encounter.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome!

Game from this morning:


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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #2 Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:11 am 
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Another game


Clearly, I (black) did not play well. Some ideas:
:b13: O4 instead with the intention of white S13, black R3, white S9, black K3.
:b19: M5 or N5 instead to be more connected with lower right group
:b21: M4 to separate the two white stones. If white tries to stay connected with M3, then black N3 uses the relative strength of the lower right group and now hard for that L3 stone to amount to anything threatening.
:b27: O17?
:b41: leave that stone and play elsewhere?
:b57: play at K16 to kill J16
The whole sequence from move 33 to 57 is pretty bad, but I'm not really sure what the key fixes would be.
:w92: surely there's a way to kill this stone and retain the corner? In any case, I've already lost at this point.

From 195, I considered the game over and wasn't paying close attention. I clearly should have been more attentive to the number of liberties in the upper left group! or I could have resigned earlier, but I thought it would be nice to end with an "official" score count.

With so many mistakes by black, it is hard for me to pick out white errors.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #3 Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:22 am 
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Some quick comments, just on things I am relatively confident about:

jgr314 wrote:
:b13: O4 instead with the intention of white S13, black R3, white S9, black K3.

O4 might be a tiny bit better, but O3 is perfectly reasonable.

Quote:
:b19: M5 or N5 instead to be more connected with lower right group

I would probably play J3 to take away White's base while sketching out a lot of territory in the lower left. Your move of L5 is interesting, though, starting to make a big moyo on the left.

Quote:
:b21: M4 to separate the two white stones. If white tries to stay connected with M3, then black N3 uses the relative strength of the lower right group and now hard for that L3 stone to amount to anything threatening.

If you play M4 and White plays N3, your lower right group is starting to get weak. Maybe instead exchange N3 for M4 and then play Q6 as part of a leaning attack.

Quote:
:b41: leave that stone and play elsewhere?

No!! G15 is a cutting stone; White's three stones at H14 are very weak if you keep them separated from the corner, and very strong if you let White capture. G15 is one of the most important stones on the board. It is admirable to not be overly attached to stones, but it you have to stay attached to the important ones. :)

Quote:
:b57: play at K16 to kill J16

Nice idea. It turns out L16 was actually okay because after White's next move at J17 you have G17 to save the two stones and capture his.

Quote:
:w92: surely there's a way to kill this stone and retain the corner?

I'm not an expert in these situations, but you should not expect to kill this. You should be very happy to force a ko for life, and I'm not even sure that this is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #4 Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:59 am 
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while dfan is right, that it is probably hard to kill the invasion stone outright, your opponent did give you multiple chances to do something

Lets start from the back: in the final position, what is the status of the lower left corner?

hint:
try to start at a2 for black

answer:
black a2, white a3, black b1 makes seki! This is only a small to medium size endgame though, it gains 5 points in gote(white has 5 points if he protects again). White should probably not resist at b2, cause afer black a3, he has to play a throw-in ko at a1 for his whole group.


How about the status at move 137? This is pretty tricky probably

answer(I think ;):
after black b2, white seems dead. he needs to connect at b3, otherwise he loses his 4 stones and after ahle is not able to make two eyes. an important variation is: black b2, white b3,black a3, white a2, black a1 white b1. What does black do now?
answer:
connect at a2. He loses his 4 stones, but can play at a2 again after to kill white

Instead , the also appealing peep at a3 does not seem to work so well, because after white a2, I see nothing better then ko for black after black b2, white b1


Now having solved this, now killing at move 105 should be even easier:
b2 works even more simply. After white connection at b3, black can connect underneath at c1



And last but not least, where should white play for 100 to avoid these troubles and make two eyes in the corner? Hint: which point was the vital point in most variations?

I would play at b2 for white. This should be alive, but still he needs to continue correctly.
How to reply to a black attack at a3?
white b2, black a3, white a2, black a5, white b3(!not a4, shortage of liberties) and white is gonna make an eye at a1 and another one at a3(black cannot connect back, since a6 is still open)


I hope this sharpens your tsumego skills and I hope I didnt misread anywhere.


This post by Schachus was liked by: dfan
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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #5 Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Thanks for the comments and guidance!

for :b59: at G17, I had missed that :b61: at J18 will suddenly allow that group to get more liberties and live. I'd just counted 2 liberties against all of white's nearby groups having 3 and gave up on those stones.

Schachus: that's a very clear way of understanding that group.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #6 Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:49 am 
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First of two games from tonight. This was against Jate.


Thoughts on what I did badly:
:b19: too small. either F3 or O3 instead? After :w20: it feels like he is scoping out a huge territory and I'm just making a thin strip along the right edge and top.

:b23: not sure why I didn't play joseki q3. This move makes :b21: at q6 too close.

:b33: N14 instead. The Q13 stone doesn't really threaten either my group on top or on the lower side; if I cut it off, it doesn't really have friends or that much room. Alternatively, maybe I should take an opportunity for F3 or C6.

:b37: I don't know joseki, but I felt this was ok to try to keep a connection with my right side group. G4 seems to be joseki response, but I'm not sure whether there's a version that does something really useful for me. I guess the joseki's at least make it harder for white to calmly build a wall and scope out the huge framework working well with his other stones.

:b67: doesn't do anything. N3 instead
:b75: at N5 to connect
:b81: wasted move.
:b91: maybe n11 better, white captures, then p11
b103 terrible. I think any of G1, H1, or G2
b133 L1 so at least
b143 I think that white group is already dead, so play a stone to make 2 eyes in lower side group instead.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #7 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:57 am 
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Second game from last night, against Jin. This time, KGS gives me 2 stones.


Unfortunately, I have to work and don't have time to review. Darn how the rest of this "being a responsible adult" thing is really getting in the way of playing/learning go!

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #8 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:12 am 
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First game this evening. Playing against both boys. KGS suggests 3 stone handicap, they give me 2.


I was incredibly frustrated losing that group on the upper right and the extent of the reduction on the bottom. Probably shouldn't have resigned, but it gave us time to play another game.

Some other quick notes:
(1) I think I did a really good job with the ko sequence from 126 to 140.
(2) If I had known how to consolidate my position at 147 and beyond, particularly making sure their middle group at H9 can't live, then I would have won.
(3) In review, the boys explained how I could save the upper group with T11, even after they play R12.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #9 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:29 am 
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Second game today after resigning the first one.
This time, we played even with less time (5:00 + 5x 0:30). Again, against both boys.


Some quick notes:
(1) I feel my strategic thinking/direction of play is very weak. Early in the game, I get the impression that they have massive potential and most of their groups are working together compared with mine.
(2) lower right seems silly with a massive blob of stones.
(3) lower left, maybe I should have moved on to something else for move :b25:? His three stones are a mini wall not facing anything, they don't have any shape for eyes, they are pretty isolated, so not a threat. My idea was somehow to put pressure to get an advantage for myself. Maybe I played too closely and should have looked at a different way of surrounding?
(4) I have to look at approaching 3-4 to see what interesting things I should have done with their top stones both 3-4 and the huge space in the middle. Maybe just play in the middle?
(5) Black 167, though it took me a long time to see it, finally I got to double atari the two Js, instead of being double ataried by them. Felt good, even though it was way too small to affect the game outcome. Also, I think they chose the wrong side to save.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #10 Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:53 am 
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Just FYI, but there is something wrong with the link to download the SGF in the frame that contains the games. I couldn't download either of them.

IMO, the biggest issue is that early on, you seem to play too defensively and make moves early on that should wait for later in the game. I think if you remember the adage "corners, sides, and then center", it might help. For example, consider moves 8 and 14 in the first game, you are playing a side move when there are still corners to handle. Approaching C16 or starting the enclosures for your two 4-4 points would be a bit bigger at this point. if you are worried about white being able to play an approach move to your one space extension on the fourth line, then opt for playing the small knight rather than the one space extension in response to the small knight approach. Both are fine responses, but more often than not, the fourth move on the one-space extension is left until later. It's a vulnerability, but not one that is serious enough to warrant immediate attention.

In game 2, almost all of the action is taking place on your side of the board until move 81. Because of the direction the game took, I think you still could have won if you had played 81 to fill in the ko R9. I'm not great at playing out kos, but at least to my eye, that ko seems bad for you. If you lose it, you lose a large territory, but if you win it, you gain very little. I'd have filled the ko and the focused on invading white's territory. It's large, but very open. While your territory is also sizable, but much better defended. If you can create one large or two smaller living groups there and prevent white from reducing your territory, I think you win.

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #11 Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:15 pm 
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Thanks, those are helpful points.
I agree about the ko on the second game this weekend. That didn't help me at all. Maybe white could have used it to put more pressure on me. I was sort of in the mode of trying to resist initial urges to fill in a ko. In the first game, that was one of the few things that I seemed to manage pretty well.

I don't know about the download sgf links in the frames. These games are on KGS, so I just use the links to the KGS archives. It seems that none of the "download sgf" links work when I do that. Perhaps someone else has encountered this before?

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 Post subject: Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Post #12 Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Looking at the game in post 8 https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=219572#p219572 again, I feel that it wasn't too bad until the sequence starting at :b20:.

With some Dwyrin back to basics ideas:
(1) weak groups: all my groups are fine. White has a weak group in the bottom right. It doesn't really have a base and is very far from help.
(2) corners: upper left can still be approached

The former was what I had in mind, but two flaws: (a) white would have had to respond to me approaching the corner, (b) I needed a way to pressure the white group, make territory and not actually strengthen white.

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Post #13 Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:14 pm 
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jgr314 wrote:
Looking at the game in post 8 https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=219572#p219572 again, I feel that it wasn't too bad until the sequence starting at :b20:.

With some Dwyrin back to basics ideas:
(1) weak groups: all my groups are fine. White has a weak group in the bottom right. It doesn't really have a base and is very far from help.
(2) corners: upper left can still be approached

The former was what I had in mind, but two flaws: (a) white would have had to respond to me approaching the corner, (b) I needed a way to pressure the white group, make territory and not actually strengthen white.


Compare the board at move 20 in your game and in the variation below. This is just one possible way this could have played out, but black has much more control over the board and white's position is much more restricted in the variation. I also added a few other comments. In regards to Dwyrin's comments, your positions in the upper right and lower right corners were fine even before you added the large knight extensions. So, not to speak for him, but that would seem to argue moving to the second point of approaching/enclosing a corner rather than playing the large knight extension -- that's effectively just a side extension, although one that does fix a defect in the original black shape.



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